[JAMES]: Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: No, that’s just my lunch.

[COBY]: Hey, thanks for joining us. I’m Coby, he’s James, and let’s get started with a question. How do I manage lazy and unmotivated employees?

[JAMES]: Yeah, big one. honestly, first and foremost, what I want to talk about is that if you want other people to change, you’re going to have to be willing to change first. If your current management style or focus is not working, then you need to be willing to be different. And being different requires putting yourself out there, trying something new, and showing vulnerability, which can be a very difficult process to if you’re not used to it. But on the question, you know, lazy and unmotivated employees. Honestly, I don’t think, most people are lazy. And personally, I don’t think anyone is actually unmotivated. I believe that everyone’s 100% motivated all of the time. It’s just that they may be 49% motivated by their work and 51% motivated to just do enough not to get fired. Right. Lazy, in my opinion, is a symptom of not channeling people’s motivations in a productive manner. Now, there’s always going to be, like, external factors that the workplace can’t control. Like, maybe I have a. I’ve been dealing with a sick kid for the last however many days, and they’ve been up at night and I’m not sleeping. So at work, my motivation is going to be heavily weighted towards doing the bare minimum just to get through the day. But I think the intent behind the question is more about how do we incentivize the behaviors at work that we actually want. So maybe I’m. So maybe I’m working in a retail environment where I have to deal with the general public who, let’s be honest, they are rarely at their best when shopping. and I have a manager who I know is not going to back me up when I have that difficult customer and I’m struggling to make ends meet. Where is my motivation going to be focused? Am I going to be motivated to ensure that that next customer who walks through the door actually has a great experience? Or am I going to be motivated to avoid the inevitable conflict that comes from dealing with the public and do the least amount of work possible not to get fired? So I think in terms of our conversation over the next, whatever, 40 minutes or so, I think it would be valuable for us to look at not so much who is lazy and unmotivated. But how did we get here, what does it look like and how do we fix it?

[COBY]: Yeah, I think it’s, it is an important thing just to kind of put a little bit of parameters around kind of the loaded terms of lazy and unmotivated. And it is good that you, you had stated early that people are always motivated. It’s just the ratio of where their motivation is split between like, you know, alarm clock goes off, you’re always 100% motivated and you may be only 20 motivated to get out of bed and you’re 80 motivated to hit the snooze button. So you hit the snooze button. So it’s, it’s really more of a, which, you know, which competing motivation on your 100 scale is, you know, is a higher percentage than that’s the action you take. So it’s really not about people being unmotivated. It’s just the undesired behavior tends to just have a higher percentage than the desired behavior. So it’s really, it’s a really important way for people to understand motivation. But also I think it’s that we might want to kind of break down again the loaded terms of, lazy and unmotivated and kind of like a few different categories. So it’s kind of clear who we’re talking about or, sorry, what kind of behaviors we’re talking about and kind of. And what kind of behaviors are, you know, probably going to be not necessarily covered under this topic. But I think it might be helpful for us to kind of look at four different things real quick, which is what are complacent employees, what are toxic employees, what are fully disengaged employees and kind of who are there and what are the quiet quitters? Because I mean, toxic employees is, you know, is something unto itself and we’re not going to really kind of get into it. Like, you know, when behavior gets to the point of being kind of aggressive or being, you know, like, almost like just tearing the place down, creating stressful environments, conflict.

[JAMES]: That’s behavior is not addressed through motivation. It’s addressed through performance management, discipline and termination. You cannot allow those types of behaviors to fester in your workplace. I mean, you’re going to have to resolve the cause of those behaviors. But, it’s really hard to pull an employee back who’s gone full blown toxic.

[COBY]: Yeah, and we’ve done an episode previously where we kind of dug into toxic behaviors a little bit. So. But that’s really not Going to be where our focus is, I think, around idea of kind of the complacency of employees.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And then. And then it’s probably going to be where the bulk of the conversation is going to hit. like fully disengaged employees are people that are completely checked out. And it’s something that, you know, where and how, you know, that impacts something that we probably will talk about. And then there’s a folks that are kind of the quiet quitters, which are the idea of they’re kind of doing the bare minimum of the job. They’re doing as much of the job as they’re required to do, but nothing above and beyond. And whether that is kind of the expectations of their coworkers that everyone does. Everyone does that. Whether it’s kind of a act of protesting that I’m not going to kill myself for this company that doesn’t care about me, or they just are not sure how to give more because they don’t have the right direction. That’s something that we’ll probably touch on. So I do think that, you know, when we’re going through kind of, we’ll probably kind of keeping those, those three, the quiet quitters, the fully disengaged and complacent in mind will probably be helpful.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And I think a lot of, especially with complacency, I think a lot of people mistake laziness, and complacency because the behaviors, the outcomes, or, how that looks on the outside, I think are very, very similar.

[COBY]: Yeah, agreed. So I think we could. So we’ll jump into kind of the first thing you said, which is kind of how do we get here? And I think the first thing I want to mention on the how do you get here? On, how do we get here is really talking about how success is viewed and measured in your workplace. Like, what are the things the workplace is prioritizing and what. And how are you developing your people? What are you preparing them for and what are you expecting from them, either you know, overtly or kind of, you know, through assumptions. But really it’s a matter of, you know, how is success measured?

[JAMES]: Yeah. And this is a big one for me because I’ve seen. I don’t know if we want to jump right into story time. I mean, but we. And how. So how success measured is not only about your performance management system. Right. That’s a big part of it. Setting those expectations and letting people know how they are going to be successful in the role. So. But it’s not only about Those formal mechanisms, a lot of it has to do with our attitudes and the attitudes as managers that we allow to persist among our teams or in our workplaces. Right. If there are unspoken norms, or rules that people know, you know, they can get away with doing these the bare minimum and not having to really put any effort or try and there’s no consequences for that. And you know, well, you know, I can do whatever I want because Johnny’s been in the job for 25 years and barely does a thing and nobody says boo to him. So why would I be motivated to do any differently? Right. Like there’s, there’s a lot that comes from this element and it’s important to realize that yes, it’s formal measurements of success, but it’s often the bigger in influencer tends to be those informal pieces that we allow on a daily basis to kind of slip through without being challenged. That builds a tremendous amount of complacency in our teams.

[COBY]: Yeah. I think a good, a good example of of this is when we talked about this in the podcast before is kind of the difference between being busy and being productive. Right. The idea is that, you know, when you’re busy, you’re using as much time as you can with the tasks that you have, spreading your tasks over the day to fill your day. Whereas when you’re productive, you’re doing as many tasks as you can with the time that you have, maximizing your time to try and get a lot done. A lot of workplaces unintentionally reinforced busy, even though they’ll say no, no, we’re performance focused, you know. Well, you know, formally this is how we are. We are very productive. But it’s the everyday casual interactions, unspoken expectations, or letting too many things slip that turns people into attorneys, workplaces into prioritizing busy. And a lot of it is, you know, it’s about the measurement for success is how long it sit at your desk, how you know, like, you know like again it’s those very time based stuff, how long you were doing something, how long it took to complete it. Those very time based measurements are tend to be kind of a common reality in workplaces that unintentionally prioritize being busy over being productive. Yeah.

[JAMES]: And I think just sharing a personal example, I mean obviously before starting Roman 3, but in a previous role, the formal measurements of success were very outcome based. Right. And the way the job was presented was very outcome based. You know, you have these ambitious targets that need to Be set. So do what you need to do to crush. It was kind of how things were framed from that formal performance management structure and incentivizing behaviors. And then the CEO would watch to make sure that everybody was at their desk at 8:30 in the morning and did not move from it until 5:00 at night. Right. So even though we had this very outcome based, formal process and my job required me to be in and out of the office, significantly the informal structures and what was being reinforced on a daily basis was if you are not in your, at your desk until the minute your shift or the time is over, then you’re not being productive.

[COBY]: No. This is the common reality of performative expectations. To look busy is what a lot of managers and leaders unintentionally reinforce force and kind of create this environment where people will become more complacent or show on lazy or unmotivated behavior. And it’s because, you know, and it’s again, it’s this idea of putting on productivity theater looking like you’re working because, because looking like you’re working is weighted more than what you achieve. So then employees will take the path of least resistance and they’ll, and they’ll do that. so it’s one of those things where, you know, that’s one of those things that you need a hard look at. Kind of what your expectation is that you as a leader are reinforcing. Is it the performative expectation of people looking like they’re working or are you truly actually, you know, focused on the outcomes? It doesn’t really matter what it looks like as long as the success at the end of the week or whatever like that is happening. Who cares what it looks like? You really need to kind of ask yourself that kind of hard question.

[JAMES]: I really like that term of performative theater or performance theater. I’ve heard you say it several times previous. Like it’s, it is a great illustrative word or term that really gets to the heart of it. Right. We are just putting on a play so that people, so that the boss doesn’t get mad so that we don’t get in trouble, even though we’re really not doing an awful lot. it’s just going through the motions and making it look good for somebody else.

[COBY]: Yeah, absolutely. And the reality of how true the whole productivity theater is in the workplace is something that is one of the things that new employees tend to pick up on. Because, because your, your, your story of how you thought you took a job that was outcome based and then turned into be a job where it’s really about performing, productivity theater. Is that bait and switch that a lot of new employees tend to fall into. And we’ve seen this in a number of organizations that we’ve worked with where sometimes their onboarding process or, sorry, the recruitment process and their onboarding is very much about, you know, this is who we are, this is the brand. We’re all about your success and your growth and Eurocoms. And then when the employees get into the business, then it’s almost like the, that that tone doesn’t carry into the every day. And then the older employees are like whatever they told you, that’s a lie. Your managers are to get you. Everyone’s up for themselves. there are, there are no career growth goals. keep your head down and don’t rock the boat.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And that’s the only way to survive here. And that bait and switch is another big reason of how a lot of people get here. Because people go into jobs usually with, you know, with, with, with great enthusiasm. They’re on, in a honeymoon stage wanting to try, you know, this is going to be a fresh start for me. And then often it’s their early experience that doesn’t make, that doesn’t last or. Sorry, that doesn’t make that last.

[JAMES]: Well, you’re right. There’s so much there I can know from, from myself. There has been a tremendous amount of excitement in starting something new, whether it’s a new job, new project, like, yeah, that’s, there’s, there’s that honeymoon period. Right. Where people are excited and we can capitalize on the enthusiasm. And you’re right. People do not tend to start a new job unmotivated. Right. They get excited about the opportunity and what they can do or what the job will allow them to do, even if they’re not necessarily excited about the job. Right. But that motivation, if you do not do something to reinforce that, to build upon it, if you just let it sit, and idle, for, you know, the first three months, six months, however long, it’s going to wane. Right. That it’s kind of how. It’s similar to how we talk about motivation, from a company perspective in terms of connecting with a big picture ideal that somebody that the company is trying to change. Right. You know, we have this great mission statement that, you know, we are out to change the world. Well, those are great for inspiring motivation, but really bad at sustaining motivation. And we, and in. And when there’s a new job opportunity employees, tend to be inspired by, by the newness, by the challenges that will be presented, by the. Maybe even by the mission that the company has set out for the organization. It’s great to inspire motivation, but we. The. The work actually begins with how do you sustain that motivation on a daily basis.

[COBY]: Absolutely. I think this might not be a bad time to kind of shamelessly promote our, igniting motivation.

[JAMES]: Never a bad time to shamelessly promote ourselves.

[COBY]: So our igniting motivation, the eight Sparks of Purpose program, is about helping understand what are the things that do motivate people, what are the different things. It’s not just about inspiring but sustaining motivation in the long term and understanding people are all motivated by different things. And if you as a, as a business owner or leader know kind of what motivates your team, you can start to change things in your workplace to kind of help tap into everyone’s individual levels of motivation, what they prefer for motivating factors, and not just kind of hoping everyone has the same want. so I’ll make sure there’s a link to kind of that program for those who want more information about it. And because it is a very helpful tool for this and it does speak to what you kind of said, is that if you have an idea about the stuff that’s going to help sustain someone’s motivation, then it makes that new kind of employee experience thing a lot more effective because that kind of moves into. What I want to say is the third. How do we get here, is that years ago, employees were motivated or were, you know, had, you know, were happier in the job or were able to stick around a lot longer, gave employers a lot more leeway, for kind of sustaining their motivation and their work ethic, with a lot less by requiring a lot less. Again, going back, you know, 30, 40 years, you know, kind of a good paycheck, you know, weekends off. Those types of things were, were, were motivating. People would stick around just for the benefits, just for that experience.

[JAMES]: We call that loyalty. But really it was employers doing. Giving people what they needed to stick around for a while.

[COBY]: Exactly. Yeah. And the problem is that a lot of employers still think that those basics that were the norm 30, 40 years ago are, is still what happens today. But the truth is it’s not. And I like to attune or. Sorry, I like to kind of connect or use kind of the analogy of why it’s different to kind of. To the kind of comparative. Comparing it to our attention span. Right. 30,40 years ago, reading a full book to kind of share information with people, people had the attention span. They would sit down and go through it. You could get great material in front of people that was multiple pages long. They would take the time to read it. They had the focus, they had the attention span. It was easy for them to sustain that. And that’s kind of the same way it was with, with work. Their motivation was easier to sustain with a much kind of simpler approach. Fast forward to today. We don’t have the same attention span with our media, but you know, where we used to be able to read 3 to 4 pages full text to kind of, you know, as initial engagement. Now everything has to be videos and those videos have to be 30 seconds. They have to have lots of different moving pictures because our attention spans have shrunk.

[JAMES]: People won’t read three or four paragraphs on a, in like, on social media. Like that’s considered a wall of text, right?

[COBY]: Exactly. Yeah.

[JAMES]: And three to four paragraphs is not a tremendous amount of information. It’s not a tremendous, time investment to get through. But you’re right, the attention spans have.

[COBY]: I would say they’ve eroded, right? Yeah, like, like, you know, they’ve worn away. And we’re now at the point where, you know, 30 years ago the normal attention span was maybe multiple pages of full text. Today the attention span is again 30 seconds of a quick clip video. This. So this is the comparative to where we are with m motivation and with new employees trying to like, you know, giving their employers the time to kind of show that motivation, show that they’re providing them what they need. Where employers are used to it being a couple years like it was with simple things back 30, 40 years ago, now you’ve got a much shorter time. So why I call this your retention span, that how long an employee is going to retain their motivation and enthusiasm while the employer shows them the, you know, that they’re giving them what they need to be successful. So our attention span is about how long we have the focus on, on something kind of, you know, with media or content. Our retention span is how long we can retain our motivation enthusiasm M for our employer while we’re new into the jobs to kind of see if we can sustain our motivation or if we’re going to ever going to end up dipping and we’re going to fall into what they consider lazy and unmotivated.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And if you’re doing nothing to incentivize people to like, I mean, with the attention span analogy, we do things to incentivize people to actually get through content and you know, to listen to materials or watch videos or you know, whatever that medium is that you’re using. if you don’t do that, people aren’t going to have eyes on your content just like I. So I like the analogy you use of the retention span because people are coming into a new job motivated, enthusiastic, maybe not super. like maybe the, the job is a difficult, very physical job, but it gives them the ability, they’re excited about what it will allow them to do. Whether that’s, they’re motivated by being able to provide for their, or motivated by the need to achieve or whatever that personal motivation is. It’s there, it’s ready to be captured. But if you let it sit idle, then they are going to find that motivation elsewhere because people are always motivated. And if you are not capturing that motivation and channeling it in your business to, through for productivity purposes, they will go elsewhere to find their motivation and they will just go through the motions at work and then on their own time. That’s how they will find their sense of purpose.

[COBY]: Yeah. And this whole idea of we have shorter retention spans now when we start a new job is why things like onboarding is so important. Because like, because employers like, you know, well, give them a couple years to see how they like the job where the employee is like, give them a couple, I’ll give them a couple weeks to see if I like the job. That difference of expectation around their retention span for their retaining motivation enthusiasm is a big problem. But if you’re not really effectively onboarding people, then you’re losing those critical few weeks where just like if you don’t grab attention with that video for their attention Spanish, you’re, you know, you’re wasting valuable seconds before they give up and they move on to something else. It’s the same thing. You have to show them the value, the proof of your, of your your value proposition as an employer. Make it, make it real for them early on. So that way you’re capturing the, their motivation and enthusiasm during, during their retention span timeline that they’re coming in. Again, we’ve seen studies from Gallup that kind of said, you know, maybe there’s not growth opportunities in the first couple years. This and this and this. Well yeah, maybe that’s in some high level jobs, but for the average employee it’s not years, it’s weeks, months.

[JAMES]: yeah.

[COBY]: So it’s important to really understand what are you doing to capture them and improve their work ethic and, and sustain their enthusiasm and motivation during their short retention span is a vital question for every business to be asking.

[JAMES]: Yeah, and I’m glad that you brought up the topic, of onboarding, because that’s a great way to extend that retention span a bit. but I need to be clear that orientation to the job does not constitute onboarding. Right. A checklist of, you know, here are the things that you need to know on your first day. That’s an orientation. Right. The bare minimum of here’s what you need to do to get along to, here’s where the fire escapes are, and here’s where you can go to find policies that those are important pieces to let people know about. But that’s an orientation activity. Onboarding is really a more involved, more intentional process of making sure that people are going to be successful in those first few months. Right. That they are connecting with the with the job, that they are fitting with the team, that they understand what the organizational culture is that you, are checking in with them as their manager.

[COBY]: We did an episode, I’m not sure I put the episode of the show notes. It was one of our Q and A episodes. We talked about the difference between orientation, onboarding. It is something that is a great thing for people to be aware of. but I also realize again, this little bit of how we get there, a lot of it is about new employees. And you listening might be like, well that’s great for new employees, but how do I manage lazy and unmotivated employees that I have already that been here for a long time.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Which is a fair question. So I think we’ll move on to the next thing. You said that kind of what does it look like? And the best way for us to kind of talk about that is it kind of, we’ve got kind of three profiles that we kind of use for different types of kind of lazy and unmotivated behavior or complacent behavior or disengaged behavior, that sort of thing, which might help you kind of understand kind of where people are coming from, but also kind of help us kind of deconstruct kind of effective strategies when we get into the how do we fix it part. So the first one, the first type of lazy, unmotivated kind of behavior is a profile that we call the lifer. So this is somebody who’s been doing the job for a long time and honestly they like the status quo. They don’t really Want things to change. They don’t really want things to be different. They like being busy. They like the job where they can kind of come in and do and use as much time as possible for the tasks that they have. They don’t want things to, you know, to. To change up on them. They’re comfortable where they are. And this is the kind of, employee that often, you know, is again, often a more senior employee. They’ve been around for a long time and they’ve kind of worked themselves into a comfortable niche, but they’re prioritizing their comfort. And they’re someone that, you know, you, as a manager almost feel bad asking them to work better, work harder, because they’ve been around for a long time, which is a weird thing, but it is very common. yes, the lifer can be a challenging type of profile to. When it comes to this kind of issue.

[JAMES]: The lifer is a big, I won’t say roadblock, but, certainly they can slow things down, when you’re trying to do anything new. Right. Because they protect their comfort zone. They. What’s. What can be really damaging is if you have a lifer who’s also a fairly charismatic person because then they can start to infect, your new employees. Right. To your example, previously talking about, you know, the bait and switch idea with a new employee coming in and then kind of getting connected with some of these more senior employees who tell them the real way that business operates. Those lifers can do a lot of damage to enthusiasm and motivation early on for a new per. For a new, employee.

[COBY]: Yeah. Well, one thing that’s funny in a sense is that. And we, we advocate when we’re working with clients about the power of mentoring. Yeah, Mentoring new employees and kind of mentoring, you know, potential leaders, kind of building those support systems in place. And it’s tough when you’re prioritizing that, but you’re not realizing that who you’re putting new employees with are these lifers that are actually kind of killing the motivation. They’re completely undermining the whole mentoring program. So sometimes there’s a bit of quality control that has to go into, effective mentoring programs. Because it is.

[JAMES]: Yeah, I’m, I’m laughing because this, this kind of spans, a couple different, of the profiles. And you know where I’m going with this. Yeah, I do. very, very early on in my career, I remember getting pulled in on a disciplinary meeting and the manager, who I, who pulled me in, you know, really wanted me to succeed, wanted to, you know, correct what they saw as undesirable, behaviors and pointed to a co worker of mine and said, you need to, you know what, emulate this person. And he was a long term employee lifer, wonderful person. However, from a guidance and mentorship standpoint, probably not the person who you want new employees to be emulating because I’m giving away one of the future profiles. But he knew how to game the system. He was a professional. He had everyone look to him as the standard for what an employee should be. But I have never met somebody in my life who was better at skirting rules and doing what he needed to and just gaming the system than this person. And phenomenal human being. Love the man to death. Probably, shouldn’t have been a person that I was told to emulate.

[COBY]: Well, yeah, and, and it’s funny because you’ve definitely told the story. I know this work quite well after you tell him. Told it so many times. But like the person that was mentoring you was probably the, the poster child for someone who’s lazy and unmotivated. But only, but only his co workers knew that managers thought he was the pinnacle of, of work because he was so good at playing, at playing the game. Right. And so, so again, cautionary learned a.

[JAMES]: Lot from that man. Not so much about productivity, but I learned a lot from that man.

[COBY]: But again the key, the, the probably the Oscar goes to him for the, for a productivity theater piece, right?

[JAMES]: Oh yeah.

[COBY]: yeah. But one of the things that, you know, how, how employees kind of get this way is kind of going back to when we talked about measuring success by time.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And not by actual performance or actual outcomes. It’s the idea of prioritizing performative, expectations around looking busy and, and the looking busy, the time spent at work, time spent punching the clock, time spent at your desk is what success looks like. Lets the lifer become, you know, thrive.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: So it’s the idea of that, you know, that when workplaces do not prioritize performance or outcomes or actually, you know, focus on deliverables rather than productivity theater, it’s really easy for the lifer to kind of dig in their heels and they can be a very difficult person to motivate. Especially because like I said, if they’re charismatic and they’re friendly and they’ve been around for a long time, you feel bad managing them as a manager because they’re almost an institution under themselves. Right.

[JAMES]: And I mean it comes from A lot of different places, like I, I was going to go with one of the statements I was going to put, out there, is that, you know, this happens when you don’t provide training, or development or professional development to people. But that’s not actually entirely true because you can provide training opportunities to people, but if you don’t allow them to use their new skills, that you’re training them and you’re putting people through performative expectations around, professional development as well, where you have to go to these courses and take these classes and do this and do that, but nothing in the job ever changes because the unofficial, rules that you are reinforcing, you don’t care, then it kind of breeds this complacency. And I remember one, of our very early clients, for Roman 3, you know, this topic was something that came up and, he used the term of, you know, it’s the difference between somebody having 25 years of experience or having one year of experience 25 times. which I, oh, I love that. Told him in at the moment, I was going to blatantly steal his quote. And I have been using it ever since.

[COBY]: Yes.

[JAMES]: But it’s another good way to look at how we, how the lifer complacency angle builds and how that the behaviors that come from that tend to look very lazy or unmotivated.

[COBY]: No, that’s good. It’s really good. All right, so the second profile we’ll talk about is what we call the confused. Now, the confused is a worker who keeps seeing change happen or priorities shifting and never really fully knows what’s going on. They kind of feel in the dark on stuff and they may take a bit of time trying to fully understand, a change or a new initiative or kind of really anything. They may, you know, and so they’re always feeling like they’re behind the eight ball. So, like, if a new initiative kind of only lasts six months, the organization only kind of commission for six months, but takes them five months to learn it. Then it gets shifted or thrown out or everything reverts back to normal. They get very frustrated because maybe they again, have a bit of a longer learning kind of curve, or their learning styles are not being activated or they just are not being communicated with. And that’s probably one of the biggest ones. Right. So what they do is with the confused will resort to dragging their feet or doing the bare minimum because they don’t know why things are happening. They don’t feel they’re given the proper time to do anything with them. They, they’re not invested in the change because they just know it’s going to go back to the way it was and they, so they have no idea how long anything’s going to last or when things are going to change back again.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: So it’s about, they’re protecting themselves and their mental health and not overstressing by dragging their feet and looking like they’re lazy and unmotivated.

[JAMES]: We actually deal with this a lot because we deal in cultural transformation because, and you know, when a company has tried, you know, the flavor of the month for the last, you know, several years, implementing new strategies that never go anywhere, that you know, the implementation falls through halfway through because nobody’s ever generated any buy in for it. Nobody’s communicating the why behind what we’re doing. so this is, I mean this is a really common trait that we see. It’s not insurmountable. But you, a big part of it is respecting that different people need different things. We all need different things to be successful in our roles and we all need different things to be successful as we navigate change. And so communication buy in, you know, making sure that we are understanding, that there are like you said, different learning styles, there are different personalities, there are different, there are different education levels within our organizations as well. So we need to tailor our communication to our audience. Not just send out blanket. Here’s the newest thing that we’re doing. there’s going to be some training on it and then you’re expected to be fully trained within, you know, after a three hour half day workshop.

[COBY]: Yeah, yeah. And I mean just like kind of we talked about, the lifer tends to be kind of going back to that complacent employee type of situation. The confused is often kind of resorts to becoming what people know as a quiet quitter partially is because they’ll do their job, but they’re not going to do much more than that. Sometimes it’s at a protest, but sometimes it’s at a survival because they just don’t know how to jump into it or don’t have the bandwidth to constantly be shifting gears. So they just end up doing what people consider quiet quitting and kind of just doing kind of working to rule, you know, because it’s really just so that they can actually kind of get through the day because they, they just feel overwhelmed all the time by all the different stuff happening for whatever reason.

[JAMES]: Yeah. You want to talk about the last one?

[COBY]: Yeah. So the last one I think will Be really interesting.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: partially because I think you and I, in different times in our career, I self identify as this one. so the third one is what we call the gamers. And you alluded to this in your story about the guy mentored you. But the gamers are workers who are really good at gaming the system. They’re really good at finding loopholes. They’re really good at taking advantage of the situations. They’re more like the fully disengaged people that are the job as a paycheck. And they’re all about, just not about protecting themselves to do as little as possible, often at the expense of the business. Because one thing that’s tough is sometimes these gamers are created from what would have been employees who could have become your top performers. The problem is a lot of gamers tend to be smart, ambitious and creative and they, and in the right environment they could be or could have been rock stars.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: But they’ve experienced something typically during their short retention span that has made them shift away from bringing their best to the business and potentially now using their best to kind of get the business. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. To, to game the business. And sometimes this can be institutional betrayal which we talked about kind of in a previous episode about psychological injury. But I mean the idea of where they’re. They feel betrayed by the organization that employs them. So they use their creativity and ambition, intelligence against the business to game the system and get as much out of it as they as they can while putting in the least amount of effort. And part of it is kind of a stick it to the business type of idea. But part of it is they’re smart enough to try and cut the paycheck without doing any kind of work. And the gamers can be a very tough group to try to kind of curb what you might view as lazy and unmotivated behavior.

[JAMES]: 100. Because these people tend to know all of the rules. Because in order to do your best at breaking the rules you have to know them first. Right. So they tend not to break a lot of rules but they do know how to skirt them. They look for loopholes they know how to avoid. and they do a good job at it.

[COBY]: I mean I can clearly remember so one of my first jobs out of university at a middle level management, job someplace. And I was told I have all this opportunity and all this kind of growth and potential and they really built me up. This is going to be a place I can make my career and the whole thing. And then I was only there probably a month when my hours got cut. When, when I got moved into a different apartment just because of cutbacks or the projects they said I could take on were really going to be delayed for multiple years. And then I got resentful.

[JAMES]: Yes.

[COBY]: And let’s be serious. I was young, I had a chip on my shoulder. I felt I was smarter than everybody else there. And I became the most prolific gamer that the organization had ever seen. And like the, my bosses despised me but I did nothing that was fireable with cause. But the, my co workers loved me and I was and everything because I was so good at making stuff happen but usually at the expense of the bosses. Like I was a horrible employee. And again he was chalk that up to kind of being kind of being kind of an arrogant young person. But it was the idea of I felt betrayed and I had a lot to offer and instead of using my ambition and my creativity to benefit the business, which is what I was trying to do, but it kept getting roadblocked, kept getting delayed, kept getting overlooked. So I felt betrayed by the organization and they never, in the end they again prioritize what I put with the wrong things. So I started using those skills against them to make myself a really cushy job at their expense.

[JAMES]: And again, what people need to realize about the gamers is that they don’t start out as lazy and unmotivated. I mean I’m using those terms. We’ve already, I’ve already said my piece on them but they don’t start out that way. They tend to be very high achieving or very ambitious or very like they’re people who, if you could channel that properly, are going to have a tremendous positive impact on your business. But something happened generally early on in their tenure that felt like a betrayal. So your example of your hours getting cut is great, right? They talked you up about, you know, how great this opportunity is and it’s a career making opportunity and you’re were so excited to have you. And then they turn around and betray that trust by cutting your hours. Right. What does a smart. I don’t want to I don’t want to be too nice to you here. So I’m going to move away from your example and talk about gamers in general. But what do smart ambitious people do when they feel betrayed? They act out. They find ways of getting back at you, the company for doing that. Or they leave, right? They, they leave. They become a high performer. In another company or they stay and they just become a gamer.

[COBY]: And well, the real, well, the reality is I did both. I was constantly using company time to look for a new job.

[JAMES]: Right.

[COBY]: While I was happily gaming the system.

[JAMES]: Yeah, right.

[COBY]: And that’s probably what a lot of gamers and companies are, are doing. Right. It’s, it’s the using, using the time to game system is how it is. Anyway, now, no, more discretion stories of my misspent, youth. But, let’s actually talk about kind of how do we fix it.

[JAMES]: Right.

[COBY]: And I think that it’s going to be really important to kind of talk about setting and managing clear expectations is probably something that every manager can do to improve employee motivation and to help, to help kind of improve employee performance. Because one of the things where, and you’ve alluded a number of times, the unspoken rule or the assumption or letting stuff slide or this or this or this tends to be how this stuff kind of starts to fester. But if we have clear expectations, if we can, you know, if employers say that what success looks like, how it’s going to be measured and it’s very clear what they want of them and, but also how they’re going to help them achieve it.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Then that’s exactly. And why that type of clear expectations going beyond, you know, just wanting you to look like you’re working. Here’s what success looks like. Everything like that is powerful. It sounds simple. It’s not simple to. For implementation.

[JAMES]: It takes simple, it’s not easy.

[COBY]: There you go. but it can be a really effective thing that you can do to manage what you feel are lazy and unmotivated employees.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And so we talk, we’ve, we’ve talked, setting and managing expectations frequently because it’s just, it is one of the most powerful and fundamental management skills that you can learn. But setting and managing expectations isn’t just about stating what you expect. That obviously is an important aspect of it. But for many people, in order to connect with the outcome, they need to understand the why. Why am I expected to do A, B and C? If it’s merely because this is the way we’ve done it for the last 30 years, that is rarely going to be a good enough explanation to get somebody on board. I can speak from experience. I won’t go into another story because we’re already, running a little long with this conversation. But please, if you’re trying to, if you, if there’s one thing that you take from this, around the managing setting and Managing expectations, it’s, do not neglect letting people know why these expectations are in place. How are these expectations actually going to help the, not just the company? Because honestly if they’re, if you consider them lazy and unmotivated, talking about how it’s going to help the share price is the worst why you could possibly give them. Right. But why is it going to help the team be better? Why is it going to help them be better? How why is it going to help, you know, the store, the location, the department, what you know, you need to connect that why to them.

[COBY]: Absolutely. And so, so that’s, so that’s kind of the first piece of advice. Second piece of advice is really looking at, you know, a much bigger initiative which is going to be about doing a bit of a cultural transformation towards effectively measuring performance. Right, right. It’s about, it’s about being able to kind of provide people with kind of the clear expectations. Going back to that. But about what about what success will look like and how can we optimize our people. It’s restructuring our culture, transforming it towards a higher performance based one is something that’s again a much bigger initiative. But that’s going to be how we kind of sweep up all of these employees that we feel are lazy and motivated and start to actually like, you know, bring big change. Not just kind of doing, you know, by employee, but kind of addressing all employees. Can be, can be another great way to do that.

[JAMES]: Yeah, that’s good. I mean the cultural transformation piece is huge because if you have performative solutions in place, there’s a lot of change management that’s going to be required to move from performative to actually getting what you need out of people. And that needs to be an intentional, well thought out and well articulated plan.

[COBY]: Yeah. And I think another good piece of advice to give is prioritize the employee experience. Understand that your employee experience is crucial towards your employee performance and being able to make sure that you’re not creating the environment or reinforcing the things that will create complacency or disengaged employees or quiet quitters or all this kind of stuff like that. And that makes sure that you’re not just hoping the employee experience that worked 30 years ago will work today. I think the last piece, I kind of want to say real quick is just develop your people.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Invest in improving your employees skills and letting them use those skills.

[JAMES]: Yeah, I just I agree entirely with the last point. I just, on the employee experience piece, look at those three profiles that we talked about, right. The, the lifer. There’s, they have fallen into that category because of the experiences that they’ve had. Right. Their, their experience has allowed them to become complacent and be that lifer. Same with the the confused. The, their employee experience is so sporadic. The, the lack of consistency and follow through is causing a very poor employee experience to happen. Same with the gamer. Right. Something has happened along those chain of events that had, they feel betrayed by the company. They, their experience has been negative and that’s why they are now acting out in the way that they are. So employee experience is fundamental.

[COBY]: Absolutely. That’s good. So let’s do a very, very quick summary.

[JAMES]: Okay.

[COBY]: yeah, so the question was how do I manage lazy and unmotivated employees? Largely? It’s a, you need to understand where the, this type of behavior is coming from. How do we get here? How are we developing our people? How are we prioritizing things in our workplace? Are we focused too much on performative solutions rather than on actual performance? Do we, are we, are we allowing for employees to kind of maintain their motivation and enthusiasm during what we call their retention span? How long they’re going to be able to retain their motivation and enthusiasm when they start a new job? And are we using our onboarding and kind of new employee experience to kind of maximize that or are we completely wasting it? There are different types of profiles of employees that could present as ladies and motivated. The lifer, someone who’s been around for a long time and resistant to change. The confused, the person who keeps seeing change happens but never really knows what’s going on. And the gamer, the workers who are really good at gaming the system and finding loopholes to their advantage. Knowing all of this is helpful, but the, but the thing that you have to realize is all we can all, we can address it all. We can do that by setting and managing expectations, by shifting our culture towards a more performative, base one, we can prioritize our employee experience and we can always develop people and allow them to not just have new skills, but also effectively use those skills to make our companies better. So that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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