[ANNOUNCER]: Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: No, that’s just my lunch.

[COBY]: Hey, thanks for joining us. I’m Coby, he’s James. And we’re going to do something a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some questions posed to us by our faithful listeners. So, James, I’m going to ask you the first question as we’re just going to jump right into it. All right?

[JAMES]: Okay.

[COBY]: So this is a question that’s kind of more of a, kind of common thing that’s coming up in a lot of conversations with clients and partners and everything. so I think that this is good for us to kind of bring it up and talk about it here. so here’s a question. All right. Are organizations underutilizing how they build and use their HR policies?

[JAMES]: Yep. Next.

[COBY]: Thank you for that insight, James.

[JAMES]: Yeah. Brilliant, right? But yes, and I can see where this question comes from, because what I see so often is that policies are developed to make sure that we’re hitting the bare minimum, that we are not going to be contravening, any laws. So they’re written and developed by the vast majority of organizations to meet that one outcome. Let’s protect the company and make sure, which is very important. Let’s not undersell that. But policies are the floor. They are the bare minimum that you have to provide so that you don’t find yourself in hot water legally. And that is the. I m won’t say it’s the mistake, but it is the, missed opportunity that most companies have when it comes to their policy development, is that they keep it at the floor, not recognizing that you can build off of that, and you are allowed to provide more than the bare minimum. it’s something that we strongly encourage in our work. And so our companies underutilizing how they build. And, What was it? Build and use.

[COBY]: Build and use. Yep.

[JAMES]: Yeah. Yes, they are. Because it’s this. We look at them as a very, narrowly defined tool, rather than something that can be built off of, and actually improve the employee experience.

[COBY]: Yeah. And it’s. It’s. It’s always funny, because when we do policy reviews and it is something that we do as, as part of our investigations, as part of our work that we do with clients, it’s something that is always kind of a, like, biggest area for our biggest opportunity for improvement, because people have this kind of weird, I guess almost like, minimalist attitude when it comes to policies. And we often hear things like, well, you know, when we talk about, you know, the policies being more robust and being more kind of more clear and provide like, intentional protections or those kind of things, they’re like, well, we’re not a big corporation. We’re not a huge multinational. Do we need that? We’re like, well, yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things where, like, you know, the, you m actually have an opportunity to have a greater, clearer, more transparent impact on your small team.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Then, you know, so, so it’s actually more important or it’s actually a bigger asset in a sense, for the smaller companies to take it on. So when we, yeah, so when we do the reviews, we really want to make sure that they’re, you know, like, if you know, that their policies are actually serving their intended purpose, not just meeting their bare minimum expectation.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And expectation is important. That’s kind of what I wanted to pick up on here is because this is one of the first ways that you will start to set and manage expectations with your employees is by the policies or the rules that govern the workplace. Right. So if the expectation that you set is that we only do the bare minimum, that expectation can be carried through in how employees engage in their work. Right. So, but if we set the expectations that, you know, here’s, we, the bare minimum is not enough. It’s not good enough, for us because we are committed to providing x, y or z. Right. It’s, that expectation is very different from, we are going to provide the bare minimum we’re allowed to without being suede.

[COBY]: Right. And I think that that’s probably where a lot of this normalization of bare minimum policies come from, because a lot of times they’re only written, they’re often written by, like an HR lawyer, or they’re written kind of with that total intention of, this is just what you have in place to ensure that you can stand up to litigation, or any kind of legal issue.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And we, won’t lie. When we often work with companies and help them make their policies more robust, more intentional, they say, well, our lawyers aren’t going to like this. Like, well, they should. I mean, you’re being more clear. We’re not diminishing the liability we’re making. There’s stuff that protects you, that has to remain, but then there’s stuff that you’re committing to. There’s stuff that you’re showing the intention with. This is a clear, transparent, company wide equitable statement of what? of what, you know, you want your purposes. So when we do these, when we do our assessments, we kind of have a policy matrix that we use to scale this, to score them. And we kind of have four, four areas that we score them on. I hope I’m not giving away too much of a trade secrets here, but the, we assess them for a level one, which means that they’re just written and available. You’ve got a policy, it’s on paper. Someone could look at it if they want to. If the box. If checking the box was the goal. You check the box. Yes, but that’s a level one.

[JAMES]: Level one is bad or the lowest.

[COBY]: Yeah, one is the lowest. I mean, you want at least a one. You don’t want to have a zero in that category, which is not there. Right. So, but then beyond that, and this is where most people are like, oh, we can go beyond that. Is level two. Is. Does it, is it designed for operational, like, for operational need? Like, does it meet the operational requirements? Like, is it about tying why this policy is here to how it affects the operational needs? Right, and so. Sorry, it’s optimization is where I was struggling to find. So is it optimized for operations? So. And that is about tying it back to the reason why we have this, communication policy, for example, is because it improves our operational. Defining why it’s there and how it ties back to operational success is a level two. And that’s a great asset because you’re connecting the dots to why this policy is here. It’s not so we don’t get sued. It’s so our operations can be improved.

[JAMES]: And we do see this level being hit, with relative frequency from fairly, from companies that have a, If we kind of go back to the faces of HR, framework that we’ve talked about many times, for those that really take that humans required mentality or, buzzwordy language, you know, progressive companies, this mentality, we see it quite frequently. So it’s not that this is something that is not achievable or, on your own, or it’s not something that you may already be doing. it is a very valuable build upon the foundation piece.

[COBY]: Right, exactly. But that’s still only a level two, a level three. Is it optimized for employee and employee performance? And what that can look like is statements like our safety policies are designs that employees go home in the same condition that they arrived in. Like statements like that, commitments that tie back to employee, employee well being and employee performance, and employee, in prioritizing the employee, how this impacts our culture, how this impacts our people, how this impacts the work that people do. And that is something that is a lot less common, but is something where we say, and this is usually kind of where we try and move companies, from a one to a two or, sorry, from a two to a three, from a optimized for operations to optimize for employee performance. And that’s usually kind of a lot of where a lot of the work we do around policy work comes from. And that’s, again, how we do we look at performance metrics, how do we look at recruitment processes, how do all those kind of things are usually trying to move people from operational need to a employee performance need. And then, where we do less, but where it’s always a great, thing to move towards is a level four, which is optimized for scalability. And this is why I say it’s a very beneficial thing for small growing businesses to know about that. How are the way that you’re defining your policies today going to be able to allow you to leverage, growth? So you’re planning for your scalability. You’re not trying to just keep everything at this manageable. Everything’s from the side of our desk level. You’re actually designing things with intention, with the plan to scale, if that is a big part of your business of goals and outcomes.

[JAMES]: We see this, being a stumbling block for people a lot when they develop their policies fairly early on in the growth of the company, and then it sits on a shelf for years.

[COBY]: Absolutely.

[JAMES]: The way that you structure policies, especially operational, pieces, are going to be very different when you’re a team of 30 or 50 than it is when you’re a team of 400 or 500 or 1000. Right. The, what we’ve seen is policies that sit on a shelf that are checked maybe every year to, are we still in legal compliance, but not checked for any of the other dimensions that you just talked about? And that’s a huge missed opportunity. And it’s also a big limiting factor, because sometimes the way that we design policies, especially early on in our, in the growth of our organizations, they no longer fit when we, we outgrow them. And we’re still trying to use the same policies that we used when we were a much different company.

[COBY]: Absolutely. And, one of the things that we often. So when we have these conversations with clients, they’re like, well, how big is this policy manual gonna end up being. Or how, you know, so we’re like, this ends up being a very robust document. They’re like, well, employees are never gonna read that. We’re like, well, no, of course they’re not, because, you know, like, what? But, like, not reading. They’re not reading your current policies now, to be really honest.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: So we talk about, you know, the, the value of creating an employee handbook. They’re like, well, we have employee handbook. That’s what our policy manual is called. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There’s a big difference between a policy handbook and a policy manual.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And I think, yeah, it’s always funny, having that conversation, because even as somebody who actually likes policies, doing a policy review and reading through somebody’s entire policy manual is a chore. Right. As an employee, you can’t expect that your employees are actually going to read through your policy manual and understand what’s in there and the protections that they have. You need to understand the audience that you’re. It’s communication. It comes back to communication again. Right. you need to communicate with people in a way that they are going to understand. So if you need, your employees need to know what the rules are, what the expectations are that are set out in your policies. If you hand them a 50 or 150 page policy manual, it will never get looked at until there’s a problem. And then people are trying to find the right information, going, oh, what am I supposed to be doing? but an employee manual that summarizes the key points and then points them to where they can find more complete or the full policy for if they need more information beyond that, that’s a great way to tailor your message to the audience in a way that’s going to be meaningful for them.

[COBY]: Yeah. So, and so, usually the policy handbook is, like, usually ten times smaller than the policy, manual. So it’s written in plain language with just citations of where the full policy is. And so, again, we’re sometimes like, well, the lawyer doesn’t want to have a hammock. Well, no, again, the idea is this is a summary of it, that with full citation and with language at the very beginning.

[JAMES]: Let’s throw a disclaimer at the beginning that says that the policy manual supersedes anything written in the employee handbook. If there is a discrepancy between what’s stated here and what’s stated in the official policy manual, the official policy manual, takes precedent. that way, if you’re updating things and something gets changed and updated in your policy manual, that doesn’t then make it into your employee handbook. You’re still protected against, you know, that conflict. It’s just CYA. Right. a brief disclaimer at the beginning can really mitigate a lot of that.

[COBY]: Well, but again, a lot of the stuff that tends to end up in the policy, because not every policy is referenced in the policy handbook. It’s usually the employee handbook. Sorry. Sorry. Thank you. yeah, so all the stuff in the policy manual does not often end up in the employee handbook. The employee handbook is usually the stuff that they need to know. Like, it’s like statements like, you know, we have a per diem when you travel for meals of like, you know, of this, this and this. And then, and then beneath it is just kind of the, where they can find the full description of how to claim and everything like that in the policy handbook or insurance in the policy manual, if that’s what’s needed. And it really is just kind of. It’s. Again, it’s a summary of. But so usually a lot of the legal requirements, you know, legal compliance, stuff doesn’t always end up in there. Some of the stuff around, like, you know, the kind, Of, Equitable treatment and harassment, those kinds of things. Well, but again, summarize briefly, but say the full description is in the. Paul is in the policy manual. Those kinds of things are. It’s really just a matter. It’s a, it’s like a Cole’s notes or it’s a short summary of. Right.

[JAMES]: We’ve found it as a helpful tool for a lot of companies.

[COBY]: Exactly. Yeah.

[JAMES]: So it’s a, it’s something that we encourage you to consider if you don’t already have a tool like this, or if you do have a tool like this. When has you. When was the last time it was actually reviewed and developed and looked at from a mentality of, you know, did we just check a box, you know, getting, putting our policies and our, employee handbook together, or did we actually design it with intent around operational efficiency, what employees need, and how it’s going to remain relevant as we continue to grow and scale?

[COBY]: Yeah, absolutely. So I think to kind of put the bookend on this one question. Yes. A lot of companies underutilize what a policy manual could or, what policies can be. And it could be more about just, more than just protecting yourself. It can actually be about ensuring clear statements of what you’re providing for employees, making your intentions known about preparing the company for optimize employee performance, and optimizing for scalability. It can be part of it. It doesn’t have to just be, get it done by a lawyer, put it on the shelf, only pull it up when someone gets fired. It doesn’t have to be that, and it shouldn’t be that.

[JAMES]: Yeah. Please, please don’t let it be that. yeah, I suspect that if you’re listening to this podcast or have been for any amount of time, you recognize the value in going beyond the bare minimum.

[COBY]: Absolutely.

[JAMES]: All right, let’s, look at the second question. Coby, what’s, one thing that you would recommend to improve our workplace culture?

[COBY]: Okay, so that. Yes, so that is a good question.

[JAMES]: One thing. So I’m gonna. I’m gonna make sure you don’t go off on a tangent.

[COBY]: Okay? Because I had a tangent kind of, bubble up.

[JAMES]: I could see it. I could see it brewing. Yeah.

[COBY]: All right. I think if I had to pick one thing, it would probably be communication. And you kind of alluded to that earlier, but it’s all about communication. Communication really is kind of one of those fundamental. It’s the grease that keeps the. The gears moving, in a sense. It really is kind of that thing, you know, that really is probably so important, both, you know, internal communication and external communication. Because, I mean, when we talk about, you know, like, we talk about how vital, you know, managers direct supervisors are to the employee experience and request culture and all other kind of stuff. And one of our biggest pieces of advice that we give to new managers and to kind of like any manager really, or supervisor, is be able to set and manage expectations. And largely, that is a communication tool. It’s about communicating what you’re expecting. Nothing, not thinking. This person can read my mind. If I give them, you know, some generalities, they’ll figure it out for themselves to my standards, you know, being transparent and getting that out there. And, I mean, I’d also say that as far, is also probably essential because it really is about, you know, being open to two way communication. Getting feedback, hearing constructive criticism, looking, you know, looking at, you know, hearing the employee voice so you can respond well. So having those channels that can allow you to collect information. and probably I would say that it’s the kind of thing that is the, foundational pieces to making our workplaces kind of more inclusive. Right. Hearing people, letting everybody know, keeping everyone on the same page and making sure that, and providing any kind of transparency. Transparency really is heavily involved in communication. So I think if I had to pick one thing, I’m pretty sure I’m going to say that communication is probably going to be the one thing that would make a big difference in improving someone’s workplace culture.

[JAMES]: I don’t disagree with you. Communication is really important, but I think I’d have a bit of a…

[COBY]: Sounds like you’re going to disagree with me.

[JAMES]: Well, yeah, I mean, I don’t like agreeing with you on anything. It just rubs me the wrong way.

[COBY]: That is true.

[JAMES]: but as important, yeah, I honestly, I think what is going to have a greater impact is consistency rather than communication. Communication is important, but if it’s not consistent, if the way that you, if the way that the manager acts is not consistent, is not consistent with what they say. Right? If it, if my behaviors are, if I say one thing and do another, that is in an incredibly damaging, thing around workplace culture. Right. Consistency, to me, is the most foundational, fundamental aspect of moving to the needle in terms of the experience that people have with work on a daily basis. Having an inconsistent manager, having inconsistent expectations, having inconsistent communication, having inconsistent, Like, if I, if I show up to work every day and I don’t know what to expect because my manager could be my best friend or an absolute nightmare, it doesn’t matter how good the organization’s communication is with me, I’m walking into that situation tense, ready for a fight, and with my backup.

[JAMES]: And those are not traits that will contribute to a positive work environment. So I would say consistency is key because, and I’ve used this phrase before, I’ve mentioned this several times on the podcast before that I’ve had far too much firsthand interactions with inconsistent managers. And really, the key for me is that inconsistency looks like insanity right now.

[COBY]: That, that is a very good point and a very good argument. I definitely see what you’re saying. I do think that I’m trying to figure out if I agree with you or I just see your point, but it doesn’t change my opinion. I’m trying to figure that out right.

[JAMES]: Now because we could have a cop out answer that. The one most important thing that you can do is, here’s the two things.

[COBY]: and we make, we may end up, end up there, but I do think they’re both important.

[JAMES]: But I. Sorry, I’m interrupting you. Well, I’m not that sorry, but go ahead.

[COBY]: Yeah. No one’s surprised you’re interrupting me.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Really, I mean, if you think about it though, like, there’s, you know, inconsistency is, is you’re right. Is very, very damaging. Consistency is good, but I mean, you know, like, I think that part of good communication is there’s, there’s, there’s an implication that there is consistent. Right. I mean, you can have good communication, you can have good communication and not be consistent. Like, that’s almost like that’s, that’s fair.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: Right.

[JAMES]: I I’ll concede that.

[COBY]: Yeah. So the idea that, you know, people need to be informed. People who need to be aware of stuff, even if stuff’s not great, they need, they need to know. There needs to be kind of clear, dedicated channels and everything kind of like that. So, I mean, it’s something that, you know, being consistent is important, but being. Again, but consistency isn’t necessarily. Things are positive. It just means that it’s reliably the same. Even it’s reliably the same and terrible. there are, there are consistently bad communicating communicators, consistently bad communication structures that, you know, is still just as damaging because no one knows what’s going on. Everyone’s in the dark. Right. So, I mean, so, so there is, there is that side of it too, that communication, you know, is. I mean, there’s a bit of. A bit, it’s implied that good communication will be consistent, but I mean, you know. Yeah, so. But I also kind of really do see your point. I’m struggling here, so I’m willing.

[JAMES]: I, I agree with you. I’ll concede the point on, good communication is consistent by the definition of being good.

[COBY]: Okay.

[JAMES]: however, you. If somebody is good at communicating and they’re consistently communicating, but the environment is not consistent. The expectations that, whether it’s from the direct. So m where the organization’s communications to people could be streamlined and very consistent and excellently framed, but the expectations that are placed on them are not consistent. The way that their managers or supervisors, or the periphery interact with people is not the same, is not consistent if I’m treated differently than someone else and there’s not that equitability involved in consistently how we, behave among, you know, how I treat my team is consistent regardless of whether I, they’re my best friend or they drive me up the bloody wall. Right. I see your point, and I’m not going to argue that communication is not important because it absolutely is. But I’m. I guess I’m just unwilling to move my opinion on consistency. I’ve seen it have such a incredibly negative impact when done, when there’s inconsistency that it’s going to be really hard to move me on this.

[COBY]: Well, I’m not surprised that you’re being consistent in your convictions, but,

[JAMES]: Do you see how reassuring it is when somebody’s consistent?

[COBY]: Well, I mean, and you’ve said this before, again in sessions and on the podcast, everything like that, too, that, you know, that you’d rather somebody be consistently bad than inconsistent.

[JAMES]: Hundred percent. Because at least I know how to deal with you. If you’re consistently bad, then, and I will, well, I mean, this is part of my personality, and I’m not saying do this, but I will ignore you, I’ll move around you or I’ll do what I need to do, in spite of how consistently bad you are.

[COBY]: Yeah, yeah. And there, and there is something we said that, you know, we all know those people that we work with who they’re, you know, maybe they’re not great communicators or they’re not very good at their job, or they’re, you know, or their personality is kind of. Kind of abrasive or whatever like that. But when we get to know them and we, and we, and we see that they’re consistent with that, we can find workarounds, find different ways, figure out how to utilize them in limited capacity or whatever it is. And it does make it easier than if one day they’re a rock star, the next day they’re an absolute nightmare. and that is a really, really good point. I know.

[JAMES]: I mean, thank you.

[COBY]: Yeah, it’s actually, it hurts me a little bit to, to complement your point there, but I’m. I do think, though, that good communication and, you know, good, especially good internal comms, good internal comm systems, people being in the know all the kind of stuff does do a lot in the way of mitigating consistency in some ways and stuff like that, too. But I’m also not effective.

[JAMES]: Communication will improve consistency.

[COBY]: M but it doesn’t, it isn’t, it doesn’t supersede and it doesn’t solve problems that, of inconsistency. But I’m not sure if I’m willing to, depend either.

[JAMES]: I’m okay with you being wrong. That doesn’t bother me.

[COBY]: All right, so maybe we’re in a position to agree to disagree and go back to your original cop out answer of the one thing you need is two things.

[JAMES]: Yeah, I think that.

[COBY]: I think that does have to be, where we end with this.

[JAMES]: But, yeah, communication, you’re pick one, do it well, and then do the other.

[COBY]: Well, yeah, and, and maybe any, maybe that’s it. And I think that there’s probably enough overlap and crossover that it’s something that, you know, but, but let’s be serious too. In what workplace can you do one thing and everything else, you know, it causes a ripple effect and everything else gets improved? Right. It’s, you know, this is, the thing about workplaces is that they’re so complex that you can’t just think, we’ll just carve out this one thing and there’s going to be a solution. I do think prioritizing is important, but realizing that you need to have a multi prong approach to make significant, sustainable improvements.

[JAMES]: Well, and we need to go back to the language that we often use is what are you trying to achieve? If you know what you’re trying to actually move the needle on, then understanding what do I need to, what needs to exist first for this to be successful is communication, is improving our communications. What is going to be the catalyst for change? Or is improving the way that we interact with people in a consistent manner going to be the catalyst for change that will help us achieve the strategic vision or goal that we have set out?

[COBY]: But also, maybe there’s a bit of a flaw in have. Someone might interpret the question of saying, what’s the one quick fix that will improve our culture? There is no one quick fix. There is no one thing that will completely solve all the issues. Right. It’s about multi solving problems. Right. It’s the idea of, you know, you need to have a bit of a tactical approach. No one needs to exist first before whatever you want to achieve will become successful. But realizing that there, because of the complexity of it, you can’t just expect solving one problem will solve every problem.

[JAMES]: And here’s where the shameless plug comes in. This is why it’s really important to investigate your workplace and understand what’s causing the problems that you’re experiencing. So call us, we can help. All right, shameless plug done.

[COBY]: Very shameless. You definitely ramped up the shamelessness on that, on that plug.

[JAMES]: That was, I can go further, but those.

[COBY]: I’m top notch shameless. I’m sure, I’m sure the person listening is like, yeah, that’s, that’s shameless. m. All right, so let’s move on to the last question. So I want to ask this one, of you.

[JAMES]: Okay.

[COBY]: Okay, so there’s another one for that. Someone sent us. How do I make my team feel inclusive?

[JAMES]: How do I make my team feel inclusive or included? Because those are two different questions. Did you change the language, or is that what they actually wrote? How do I make my team feel inclusive?

[COBY]: This is actually what they actually wrote. The actual language was, how do I make my team feel inclusive? So I think it. So if I had interpret that language, it’s about how do I create a sense of, inclusivity, of belonging, belonging within my team?

[JAMES]: How do I make.

[COBY]: Not just say, you’re included, you’re included, you’re included. How do I make this. This environment is atmosphere of inclusiveness and belonging.

[JAMES]: Okay, so the first thing that I’m going to talk about is psychological safety. To me, that is the bedrock of inclusion and belonging. Because if people do not feel psychologically safe to show who they actually are, to bring themselves, their full self, to work in a professional way, let’s not lose that aspect of it. Yeah, but if people feel that they need, to hide who they are, if they feel that they can’t share their opinions or, you know, the team will ridicule them or the manager will ridicule them, or there will be some reprisal for that. If psychological safety does not exist, you will not have inclusion.

[COBY]: Yeah, full stop.

[JAMES]: That’s what needs to exist first. before we can even build on, have any other conversation around. What else does it take to make my feme, my. My feme, my team feel inclusive? so I would start with that. I think that is probably the. Certainly, not the easiest, but is the best starting point, in my opinion.

[COBY]: Well, do you want to actually, this. I want to kind of jump back to the first question about policies, because what that. What. What you kind of said reminds me of working. We work with a client a little while ago, and we did. We were doing that policy review where we use our matrix and everything like that, specifically around psychological safety. We were trying to improve psychological safety for this, you know, for this exact reason, in the organization, by creating protections and commitments and statements of psychological safety. And it was one of those things that was, so eye opening to them, because they wanted this sense of psychological safety. They wanted the sense of open door policies. They wanted this kind of sense of employees sharing it. But it was almost like, well, how do we do that? We’re like, well, you need to protect that into your policies. And they were like, you can do that? Kind of goes into the whole question about, well, our lawyers, so you can. So that whole thing. So it’s one of those things where we’re talking about those things about optimizing kind of like employee performance enshrining protecting, committing to things like psychological safety will allow, team leaders to have this rock solid bedrock of psychological safety that they can leverage to make their team feel more inclusive.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And having it enshrined in policy is important because it sets the expectation. But like any policy, any rule at all, if it’s not enforced, it’s not meaningful.

[COBY]: Right.

[JAMES]: So if you’re going to put it into your policy, make sure that you are willing to back it up with your actions or else you are being inconsistent. And we’ve touched on how that already irritates me.

[COBY]: But, but the thing too is like, you know, so if you as a person want to know how to make your team feeling, you know, your team feel more inclusive, then if there is this kind of foundational support behind you that, that you can leverage to make sure psychological safety is not just you carrying it on your own, terrific. If it’s not there, and let’s be serious, in most workplaces, it’s really not there, then you do need to put in your efforts to kind of carry that onus of psychological safety within your team, whether that’s you are the team leader or you are a member of the team, you should bring this forward because it’s going to be a big way to kind of allow for it. Because my piece of advice, building on your psychological safety is kind of, what’s the, what’s the functional? So you talk, so you talk about psychological safety being kind of that foundational piece that has to exist first. But what are the, the actions that you could use to really improve making a team feel inclusive? A big one is listening, just listening to people. Not just hearing them, but providing that sense of listening to what they are saying, listening to what they’re suggesting. And that is really requires federal safety because it’s about sharing ideas, sharing thoughts, sharing concerns, sharing, sharing stresses and anxieties. Those are things that people need to be able to have someone listen to them and to understand them. And it’s really hard to feel inclusive, or to feel your inclusive environment if you’re included, or that you are an inclusive environment if people don’t really listen.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And I think an important thing for managers to understand around listening is sometimes there’s a hesitancy to, open up a discussion for feedback or for suggestions, or because, well, I can’t make every change that people want, so why would I open myself up to that? And listening is not guaranteeing or building psychological safety. And having kind of taking, this, a bit further in terms of the listening and feedback piece. It’s not that you have to m change everything based on the feedback, but to show people that you’ve actually not just heard them but have listened to their concerns, you need to also, if you’re not using their feedback, you need to tell them that. Right. If somebody makes a suggestions of, you know what I think if we did, actually did this, it would improve our outcome. Well, that whatever that suggestion is, it may not be feasible. It may not be operationally feasible. It may, there may be, restrictions that are put in place, whether it’s budgetary or otherwise. But letting people know that, you know what? That’s, that’s an interesting idea. We’re not able to do it. But, you know, I really appreciate you bringing that forward because it’s given, you know, let’s, within the constraints that we have, let’s actually figure out what we. How we could get some of the way there. Right. It opens up a chance for dialogue.

[COBY]: Right. Well, and I think one of the lines that we use in our training that I really think speaks to what you just said is that listening is the willingness to change.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: It’s not. Doesn’t mean that you have to change. It doesn’t mean that you are required to change or required to change what you’re doing or make changes based on the feedback. But if you’re listening, you’re actually willing to change if feasible, if appropriate, if practical, if usable. And if you’re nothing willing to change, then you’re. And then you’re not really listening. You’re just hearing them. You’re hearing what they have to say and looking for a way to shut it down.

[JAMES]: You’re placating.

[COBY]: Exactly. You’re placating. But with listening being the willingness to change, it’s really important to have that willingness be there. Are you willing to do something different? If you can, if it’s practical, if it’s feasible, based on what they have to say, and if the answer is no, then you’re not really listening. You’re just hearing.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And that’s why I say if you really wanting to feel inclusive, people need to know that there is a sense that people are, listening to them, that they are actually getting it out there, and that in that what they say could have an impact. Doesn’t always have to, but that willingness has to be there.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And I think that leads, and I think there’s another element that, would make a significant difference, Or significant improvement in terms of making my, making a team feel inclusive is understanding how to show recognition and appreciation to people. Yeah. it’s just, it’s such a foundational piece of. We all, regardless of background, want to feel appreciated for what we do. the way in which we feel appreciated is different amongst our, you know, different people. So. Which is why often, like, formalized or traditional recognition programs tend to miss the mark because they tend to focus on one very concrete way of showing recognition to everybody, rather than from a management perspective or as a leader, understanding how my team actually prefers to show and receive, recognition and appreciation. Man, if you can. If you can nail that, if you can build psychological safety, if you can transition from hearing to listening, and you can actually show people recognition and appreciation in a way that will be meaningful to them, m you’re well on your way. Like, those are significant steps that you can take, to actually improve how inclusive your team feels.

[COBY]: Well, and I’m really glad that you brought up recognition because, I mean, even the way that we talk about it in, you know, is about recognition has to be timely, authentic and appreciable.

[JAMES]: Yes.

[COBY]: Right. Needs to be timely and relevant. Needs to be authentic and earnest. But it has to. But appreciable is also about. Has to be, something that they understand and recognize it. Because there’s often this bias that, you know, if we just give this sweeping everybody good job. Here’s a, here’s a, here’s a gift card and a picnic, you’re. You’re recognized. You know, that’s something that, you know, is not. Isn’t. It’s a bit reductive to say that’s what a lot of programs are. But there’s. Those elements are certainly.

[JAMES]: There are some programs that. That’s all they are.

[COBY]: That is true.

[JAMES]: But that is not the entirety of recognition programs. And we recognize.

[COBY]: No. So, like I say, acknowledging, it’s a bit reductive, but the idea of it really is kind of, you know, it’s often not appreciable and kind of goes back into the listening piece, too. Right? Like, if. If you’re. If you’re listening to how employees kind of, you know, are expressing how they want to be encouraged or shown or provide opportunities for or those kind of things that can help make recognizing. Recognizing them and showing appreciation to them a bit easier. We have our program, our sevenfold recognition program. We talked about it before. It, is really about.

[JAMES]: Call us. It’s great. Shameless plug.

[COBY]: Shameless plug number two. But it really is about trying to improve, the appreciableness and recognizing that people really do have different ways that they give and receive recognition, making sure that it’s actually landing the way that you want to. But a lot of that requires psychological safety and listening to be that willingness to change how we do. Recognition and listening to kind of what people want is an essential part of it. So I think you’re right. I think you’re really well on your way to making your team feel inclusive. If you can find more ways to make incremental changes and gains around creating psychological safety, listening instead of hearing and actually looking at it. Making recognition timely, authentic and appreciable.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And just on. The last thing that I kind of want to say on the recognition piece is what we need to understand. And the, the way that I would like, if there’s one thing to change your perspective on recognition, it would be to understand that it’s a form of communication. Not to go back and reinforce, the previous question, but it is a form of communication. Right. You are trying to communicate that a person feels that you appreciate what somebody is doing. You’re trying to communicate that you recognize their contributions. Communication has to be tailored to your audience. It cannot be based on what is easiest or what I prefer to do. So if I prefer to send emails because I don’t like making phone calls. Dumb example. Then, you know, I. But the person who I’m talking to prefers to have conversations in person. Right? The emails are not going to land. It’s easy for me because it’s what I prefer, but it’s the, the medium that we use. The way in which we craft the message needs to be tailored to our audience. And the same is true for recognition. and making it, as Coby said, timely, authentic and appreciable.

[COBY]: So I absolutely accept your, your ultimate surrender. so it’s,

[JAMES]: No.

[COBY]: I recognize that you said I was right. Okay. so let’s. So this has actually been a great conversation. So I was going to give a quick summary, but.

[JAMES]: You sound surprised.

[COBY]: Yeah, well, you know, it’s. Anything else you wanted to add before I do, or are you. Or you’re good?

[JAMES]: no, I’m good.

[COBY]: Okay. So the first question that we were asked was, are organizations underutilizing how they use and build policies, their HR policies? And the answer is largely, they are often, we see this, we have this minimalistic view of policies that it’s really about just making sure that we don’t get into kind of legal hot water. And that’s really all that they’re good for. But that is, is a very much a, again, underutilized view of what they could be. They really could become more of powerful statements, transparent commitments, protections that are used to optimize operations, used to optimize employee performance, and used to structure the organization that will optimize scalability. It’s just a matter of we don’t, it’s not a common way that we’ve used it, but doesn’t mean that it can’t be something that we could really invest in to have these clear, transparent, productive documents that are also accessible. If we look at something like an employee handbook versus a policy manual, that employees could actually use and reference and understand that they are protected, they are committed to, there is stuff that is there for them. It’s not just protecting the company from them, which is how a lot of policy manuals are viewed today. The second question you were asked is, what’s one thing that you could recommend to improve request culture? Well, ultimately, it was a stalemate between James and I. Despite my lesson that it’s really, it’s, it’s communications, good communication channels, that touch on setting and managing expectations, being open to feedback and making your workplace kind of more inclusive and transparent is really valuable. But also consistency is something that we really can’t do without, which is about keeping everyone on the same page, you know, people, you know, knowing what to expect, equitable treatments, stability, reliability, because again, it’s a great statement that inconsistency looks like insanity. So it is something that we want to avoid, that insanity side of it. And then the last question was, how do I make my team more inclusive? And I think we gave some really tangible pieces of advice. I think the first place you need to start is with psychological safety. People need to feel free to speak up, share ideas, thoughts, concerns, make mistakes without retaliation or ridicule. And I think that that is going to be, the stepping stone, the what has to exist first before you can really make a team feel inclusive. Then it’s about listening, listening to what people have to say. Listening is the willingness to change. So being able to listen to people and not just hear them, so that way you actually can really make them feel like they are included and they belong and that they are heard. And then another big piece is recognition. People know that they are recognized. Recognizing them in a way that is going to be timely, authentic and appreciably understood by them is going to be something that, again, makes them feel seen and makes a more inclusive environment where people feel like they, like they belong. All right, so, that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit www.roman3.ca/podcast thanks for joining us.

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