[ANNOUNCER]: Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]: Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]: No, that’s just my lunch.

[COBY]: Hey, thanks for joining us. I’m, Coby. He’s James. And let’s get started with a question. How damaging is nepotism in the workplace?

[JAMES]: All right, before I jump into my answer, I’m going to give a little bit of a disclaimer that this is actually an argument Coby and I have been having for a few days. so we decided what better place to try to work this out than to just press record and start, arguing. So I’m of the general opinion that nepotism is bad. It is damaging to the workplace for a number of reasons. And yes, there are probably, there are situations where nepotism is probably reasonably okay, but the risk that you run as a leader, as a company, in showing nepotism, in hiring family members, the perception of inequality and fairness, I believe that nepotism is not worth the, risk that it runs, in damaging the productivity and the retention of employees.

[COBY]: Okay, I think that’s a fair point. and I think that there’s definitely a lot in your position. my opinion. Well, first of all, I’m not going to say that my opinion is the absolute opposite. I’m not going to say that I’m affirmative. Nepotism is great. Everyone go out there and nepotize your way to success. my position is really more that nepotism is complex. And there’s. It’s almost like so broad of a term that it’s almost like it scoops up a lot of very positive things and paints everything in a negative light. But one thing I want to also kind of clarify for those listening, because, again, this has been a bit of a low key back and forth between agency for a few days now. Just some terms we might drop. the first one, we should just define nepotism, which is the act of granting advantage, privilege, or position to relatives or friends, in a job. and there’s another thing that’s very similar in nepotism that’s come up a few times in our conversation, which is cronyism, which occurs when appointing cronies to a position of authority regardless of their qualifications. And then the opposite of both of these is something called a meritocracy, which are, when appointments or hiring decisions are made based, on merit. Suggests if we drop those terms, that’s where they kind of come from. But the reality of when it comes to nepotism is, like I said, is that it’s a pretty complex thing. I mean, in some environments, there’s the absolute, you know, it’s an absolute terrible thing. But when you’re talking about, you know, like, the corporate world, there’s kind of one side of nepotism, but we’re talking about small business or family owned businesses. It kind of has this whole separate thing. It’s almost like a whole different species, but it all falls under that same term of nepotism.

[JAMES]: Yeah. My problem with neptunism on the broad strokes is that it is, without question, favoritism. It is a way of giving preferential treatment to a person or group of people over other groups or, individuals. And that perception of favoritism can be very damaging to a workplace culture. I mean, it’s no surprise we do a lot of work around workplace culture. We have seen the negative impacts that favoritism can have. Whether it’s a manager playing favorites, whether it’s a CEO, showing nepotism, hiring their family members, that perception is very, can be very damaging. And I have seen it do way more harm than good. And I think one of the caveats that we have to put in here is that when we’re talking about perception, we’re talking about, the impact that it has on workplace culture. We also need to talk about, job satisfaction or job dissatisfaction, because those two elements, dissatisfaction or satisfaction, have a direct impact on how much of a problem nepotism is going to be. For instance, if people are broadly unsatisfied with their work, if there are factors of the workplace that are continuously causing them frustrations, or people are unsatisfied in general, and you drop nepotism into place or favoritism of any form, it gives people a very tangible and very easily identified piece to point to and say, that’s wrong. I’m angry about that, and I’m going to, for lack of a better term, bitch and moan about m the problems that come from that. It also goes, it creates this us versus them mentality where, you, especially if you have a large number of people who have been hired through favoritism, nepotism, whether it, I mean, this happens a lot in family businesses, right? The half the c suite is, has the same last name, you know, and then managers, whatever in structure, you’re using, it creates a very divisive and easily identifiable division between the in group, the family, and everyone else.

[COBY]: No. And you’re you’re definitely right about the connection to favoritism. And I mean, And the favoritism is probably one of the biggest things that we see come up a lot when we’re doing a lot of workplace investigations where, where our Our diagnostic tool identify high levels of job dissatisfaction. Like, I mean, even if something like. And, and when you’re right, when favored when there’s nepotism in the, in the workplace, that is the scapegoat. And that is the, that is the first thing people talk about. Like, I remember, I remember like, you know, one thing that kind of came up a little while ago. that, you know, some of the frontline employees felt that, Like, you know, we’re, you know, we’re very upset because like, you know, some staff get to leave and get their kids from school early when there’s like, you know, half days or whatever like that. And where, you know, they didn’t have school age kids. And some of the people that did it were relatives of managers. So it was instantly, it’s just because it’s their niece. It’s just because it’s their cousin. That’s the only reason why they have this advantage over, over me. I would have never m gotten a chance to do that. And I mean, where the reality was, yes, there was a niece, yes, there was a cousin. but they were amongst a bunch of young, Young parent employees that were given this.

[JAMES]: But also the job responsibilities allowed them to do that. But again, like going back, like, it’s something so tangible that people can point to and will point to and blame a lot of things on that just, it causes so many frustrations.

[COBY]: Yeah. And this is, and this, and this is one thing that is to me, feeds a bit more into its complex because the thing is, is that it’s really about the perception versus reality. A big portion of the villainization of nepotism is more about people’s perceptions or people’s assumptions rather than the actual reality of it. Because for every, you know, terribly, what’s the word for it? I guess, entitled person that’s hired because, you know, daddy got them a job. There are people who have, are almost like almost embarrassed. They got hired by family and are really in it for the work and are some of the best employees, partially because they have a similar work ethic to those in management or this or that. So, I mean, part of the thing that I feel my opinion about its complex and can’t just paint it as it with a negative brush all the time is the idea of that perception versus reality. The perception is always anything inequitable happens. Well, it’s because they’re related, but that glosses over the fact that they might be staying late, or that they might, or they might have really earned that position, or they could be the top performing employee, but they’re being held back because they can’t be promoted again without an uprising, even though they more than deserve it. So it’s one of those things where you’re absolutely right about the favoritism, but wherever we need to think about it from. Again, another perspective is the idea that just because the perception of favoritism, is there, doesn’t necessarily mean that is the reality.

[JAMES]: I think one of the big things that we have to talk about, though, is, yes, it’s perception. it’s largely the perception of the employees looking at the situation and they’re ascribing something, that may or may not be true to the actual situation. The problem is, perception trumps reality every time. What I believe is how I’m going to act on that as if it is my. As if it is reality. Right? We’ve talked about this in many times. We’ve talked about it with clients. We’ve talked about it on the podcast, that when people’s. People’s perception drive their reality, the way that they perceive inequity, the way that they perceive the workplace, whether or not you have wonderful policies in place, whether or not your son, daughter, niece, nephew, grandfather is the best qualified person for the job, the perception is going to be that they only got the job because of nepotism and that they’re unqualified. And that perception is going to rule. People are going to act on that perception as if it’s reality, regardless of whether or not that person is just a knockout, fantastic, high performing employee.

[COBY]: I’m with you in agreement that perception is largely more important than reality. I will give you that. But the thing, too, is that there’s, well, two things. One, I think that if that situation that somebody listening to this is in, where there’s ideal candidates that people are afraid to hire because of a relation, or in the case of good employees, being passed over or being overlooked because of their relation to almost like to avoid nepotism, or the perception of nepotism, if that’s happening in your workplace, then I think the real issue isn’t nepotism. It’s job dissatisfaction. Yes, it’s that you’re dealing with dissatisfaction that people are looking for a reason to point out inequity because they’re dissatisfied with their job. And that’s the sickness you need to go after, not the symptom, which is concerned. And nepotism.

[JAMES]: Yeah, so I agree with that completely.

[COBY]: Yeah. but the other thing too is just the fact that, you know, we, we have to be aware of, I think, the different contexts that nepotism comes up in. And I mean, you know, like for example, I think you mentioned, you know, CEO hiring family and cousins and stuff like that. That is certainly rich with the perception of favoritism and nepotism. And that’s a situation where there’s a real issue with people. Again, if good cancer being passed over and the deciding factor is relation, that is a problematic situation. But I also see the side of it of hiring known entities. Right? Because I mean, hiring people is tough. I mean, like we have a super flawed, in my opinion, common recruitment process. Like we see a lot of recruitment going on, a lot of organizations, and we’re like, yikes. like there is often, problem with it. And when there’s a lack of ability to hire good people, then you feel like, you know, you have let yourself down and possibly let the candidate down because you hired a bad match or whatever like that. The good thing about having this reality of known entities is it does provide a bit of a shortcut in a sense of, I know this is going to be a good employee. I know this is someone that can rely on this is trustworthy, a lot of those employability skills because I’ve known them for a long time. Rather than hiring somebody who’s going to be a potential real question mark. I don’t m think that’s the reason to hire them. But I think that that is a possible element worth, you know, worth, worth being part of the conversation. But I think though, that any benefit that it comes is going to be, you know, overshadowed by the perception, like you said. And I think that that’s also common, not just with job dissatisfaction is prevalent, but when a lack of transparency in how we do things is also probably.

[JAMES]: Yeah, I, we’re never going to get rid of nepotism. Like, let’s, let’s be real. it is. And especially whether we’re talking, ah, I think it’s far more damaging in a corporate environment, for a whole host of reasons. I still think that it is, damaging way more often than it provides value. But there’s, there’s generational businesses like that are family run businesses that kind of rely on nepotism, in just kind of grooming and bringing up the next generation, to work in the business. I mean, agriculture is huge for it, but it’s far, far from the only, industry that uses this tool, to bring people along. I think the biggest thing, you said something earlier that I think is worth bringing up again at this point before we move forward. And that’s the idea of entitlement. Because if you have someone in a position where you’ve hired your nephew into a position and they use the do you know who my father is or you know who my uncle is type of argument, one, you just want to punch them in the face because that’s instant rage. Don’t do that though. Please don’t do that.

[COBY]: Say that or punch people?

[JAMES]: Both. Don’t punch people in the workplace. Bad. Always bad.

[COBY]: Always bad. All right.

[JAMES]: That’s one stance I can take.

[COBY]: Okay. I will agree with you on that one.

[JAMES]: But it’s the idea of there are like, there are people who work their tails off to try to dispel the stigma around nepotism. And unfortunately, there are those who lean into it, put their feet up and just collect a paycheck and use it as an excuse to do nothing.

[COBY]: I think. I think you’re definitely right about. There is this like, image that I think a lot of people have when they hear the term nepotism of the like sweater vest wearing, private, school educated, never, you know, born on third base, think they invented the game of baseball kind of person that sits back with their feet up, collecting an outrageous salary while to spend the day playing on their phone and saying, do you know who my dad is? I think that is probably the villainization.

[JAMES]: Worst form and illustration of nepotism.

[COBY]: And I think that’s where a lot of minds go when they hear the term. And when those employees, and it’s those frontline employees mad, that’s that, you know, the boss’s niece got to leave early. Amongst many people. I think that vista just still in their mind of that’s what’s happening. This type of person is who this person is because of nepotism. I, do think that’s probably the villainization, but I think part of it, that’s what goes back to my idea. It’s complex. That does happen significantly more than it ever should anywhere, ever. But that is not the only kind of situation that happens when someone’s hired by family.

[JAMES]: And honestly, with the, when we’ve seen nepotism, and we’ve seen problems with nepotism in, with clients. That’s not the form that’s causing problems. It’s the people who are earnestly trying to dispel the stigma around nepotism, and they work hard to try to dispel that. But it’s still that perception of this is what people think around. You know, any advantage that they have is given to them on a silver spoon. And that comes when people are dissatisfied, when they’re upset, when they don’t feel valued, when they don’t feel that they belong, when they’re like, this is a common problem because of the. Because we don’t take the time to build a workplace culture that is trying to remove job dissatisfaction, that is trying to provide recognition and autonomy and, you know, showing people that they’re valued for their skills and for their, what they bring to other, our businesses as individuals. When we have those things in place, the perception changes significantly because people, the individuals, the frontline staff, whomever that is holding that perception, rather than the person who is in the position of nepotism, they understand that the company is trying to treat everybody well, not just family gets the perks and gets the advantages, but everybody is. We seek to give everybody what they need to be successful.

[COBY]: Well, I think that that is going to be something that if we never really come to a resolution at the end of this conversation, that’s a really excellent takeaway for people. Is that. Is that in, a workplace culture full of dissatisfaction, you know, there’s. It’s just another axe to grind. But the problem is, the problem is the culture itself. Like, nepotism in a bad culture, is a huge, problematic issue. But it’s not necessarily inherent because of nepotism, but it’s inherent because the culture is bad and they’re looking for a reason, another reason to complain. So I think that if you improve the culture, the negative impacts and the perceptions of nepotism will probably diminish. I think that’s an excellent takeaway. but I think that I just wanted to kind of also just kind of touch on. I think there’s a bit of, a differentiation between the realities of nepotism in hiring and the reality of nepotism in treatment, where most of my. It’s not so bad, in my opinion, is in the nepotism of hiring. Because, like I said, you know, hiring a known person versus over unknown, there’s some natural advantages, especially if you don’t have a strong, robust, you know, talent acquisition strategy and everything. Else like that too. and you know, like, again, if you’re in a family owned business and you know, you and the work that it is, has been dinner table conversation for decades, then those kids have been like, you know, kind of hearing about work and being groomed for work since they were kids, since they were little. Right. So you can have, you know, you can be 30 with 20 years of experience because you actually have been, you know, been a part of the business in a sense right through osmosis or whatever. But they’re, you know, in hiring is where it’s complex, but I think where I’m probably more in line with you for sure that it’s kind of always bad is in nepotism, in treatment. If an employee is hired, despite their last name, that’s something that can smack nepotism, but isn’t necessarily all bad. But if employees are treated differently because of nepotism, that is something that I’m far more in line with. That there is an issue with it. If the choice options, the special perks, if those are only going to family or only available to family, like, you know, if the cushy jobs are, you know, are, it’s not necessarily so much the position, but like the tasks they have are really cushy because they’re the niece of the CEO, whatever. That is something that I think is a problematic issue and something that is pretty much all bad.

[JAMES]: Yeah. And I mean, as we said, we’re not going to get rid of nepotism. and ultimately in a privately owned business. If the owner decides to give good quality, high paying jobs to their family, that’s their choice. I mean, it’s not inherently bad to want to give opportunities and provide opportunities for your family and to, you know, build, spend years, decades building up a business to be able to do that again, it’s going to come down to like in the hiring practice. I, yeah, I see what you’re saying there. I, I’m still hesitant to shift too far from, it generally being bad. Absolutely. In terms of treatment, in the workplace, I think it is very, very damaging if you’re giving people preferential, treatment or perks or you know, whatever it may be, because they are your family that’s going to cause you problems. I can almost guarantee it. but you also mentioned something, a minute ago that I wanted, to talk a little bit about. And that’s the idea of the generational nepotism, or the, like, we’re generational business. Generational, family owned businesses are fundamental. Like, they are a cornerstone of many aspects of our economy. And they are wonderful, examples of people building something of real value that they can, instill and, pass on to their, children who have those same core values and want to take it forward. And these things you talked about, you know, kind of learning the business at the dinner, table, it’s also a matter of. It’s very different in my mind. A child, growing up as part of a family business, being given opportunities. You know, they’re probably weekends, they’re helping out, in the business. It’s probably their summer job, while they’re out of school, they might be working there, you know, while they’re going to college, or, you know, maybe they’re getting a job right out of, high, school and working in the business and working their way up. I’m 100% on board with that form of nepotism. I, it’s still nepotism, but I’m. I see that in a very different light than I see everything else that we’ve talked about, because that’s a case of somebody who has, yes, grown up in the business. They’ve also worked in the business. They’ve also been developing skills that are of value to the business right along. And there’s a very good chance that they’ve already built a level of trust and respect, or at least relationship, with many of the employees in the business. So it becomes very natural when that person steps into a more leadership role in the business, because this is. They’ve been really, they’ve been groomed for leadership in the business. That type of career, ah, transition, I think is healthy. I think it is great. It’s a wonderful opportunity to be able to provide that, as a business owner to, or as a parent to your child, because it gives them real valued skills that they can build. And anyways, That, though, while is being very common, that’s often not where, the problems stem from. Unless that kid ends up being completely entitled and you, they make that statement and you want to punch them in the face. I got to stop bringing that up.

[COBY]: Well, the thing too, though, I do think that this is, that’s actually a really good point. The motives of the, of the person in the position of authority to hire them. Right. Because I mean, if it is, you know, the dad passing the reins to one of the, one of the children or to a niece or nephew, that is something that might have been the plan all along. And long term grooming, it’s probably been very, very transparent. Whereas the CEO, wanting to, takes over a new company and wants to bring in their own people and use that cronyism to have a bunch of yes people, or push out the old guard, or push out the people the way the company habit run because they want to run it differently. for better or for worse, that’s still cronyism. Right. but the idea of why is it that they’re doing this? Are they doing this, I think, of this transparency around the hire, and maybe this is some advice for small businesses or any business that is struggling with the realities of nepotism when they’re choosing people to take over certain roles is maybe there needs to be a bit more transparency when you’re hiring somebody who’s a relation than a regular employee. Again, are you hiring your daughter to raid out of school to give her a choice, high level position because she’s your daughter and you want to take care of her at the expense of the business? Or has this been a person that has been groomed since they were a kid to kind of develop these skills? Maybe they cut their teeth and earned their bones somewhere else, and now they’re bringing all these years of experience plus all these new ideas to kind of take the business to the next level. I think that the level of transparency really has a lot to do with the realities and the perception of nepotism and hiring. Because if we are looking at cronyism, it is still, that’s just, that’s largely bad. And it’s something that, you know, but I think that if we’re transparent about why we’re doing it.

[JAMES]: Yeah, well, intent absolutely matters. And I’m with you that nine, nine times out of ten, cronyism is bad. you mentioned you use the example of a CEO coming in and, cleaning house and bringing in their own team. I understand that mentality though. I understand if I am going into a situation where the responsibilities are on my shoulders to turn to right this ship, so to speak, I’m going to look for people that I know that ideally, people that I’ve worked with in the past and people that I know I can trust to, work alongside me.

[JAMES]: It’s still cronyism.

[COBY]: Yep.

[JAMES]: but again, well, it’s intent, right. Is my intent to do the best job possible by bringing in the best people possible and a team that I know I can rely on? Or is my intent to milk my position and give my friends, really great paying high, you know, cushy jobs.

[COBY]: Yeah. Yeah.

[JAMES]: From the outside, it looks the exact same, and we can’t. It’s you. It’s very, very difficult to ascribe, accurately ascribe intent to somebody’s actions.

[COBY]: True. I think, though, that there’s no, no. And, you know, and you’re right. I mean, like, you know, I think that it’s. Especially if you’re trying, if you have. We’re being brought into organization to do a complete 180. again, I’ve worked in from leadership positions and I’ve walked in and being like, who? There are some people that need to go, and we need to fill some talent gaps now.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And it’s. And I, you know, and I would say that, you know, it is a much faster process to hire people that you can, you know, you’ve worked with before, that, you know, you can rely on trust. But part of it, too, is making. Also making that very clear that, you know, you’re trying to govern. You’re trying to govern under merit. Right. You’re trying, you’re looking for specific, targeted strategic talent sets. And that, you know, that there, that there is a bit of a meritocracy to your approach. It’s not completely just, hey, you know, I’m only. I’m here to raid the coffers and leave with a bag full of money with a dollar sign on it, as out the door as fast as I can with my team. It’s really about, like, you know, again, I think part of it is that transparency piece really does help. But, I mean. Cause here’s the other thing, too. There are great executives who have, like, done a lot of great work and organizational transformations. Like, I’ve run into a few in my work in kind of interim leadership roles, and people want to work for them. People will, you know, so people that worked for them in the past will leave where they’ve, where they’ve, a great job to follow a great leader. And, you know, so then, you know, and just like, you know, whether that’s. You’re talking about cronyism or you’re talking about nepotism, a good leader, people will follow just like a good business part of. Well, here’s the thing, too. We’ve talked about a strong employer brand is one where employees will tell friends and family to work for. Right?

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: So, I mean, if you are a hiring, in a hiring position at a company and, you’re constantly telling friends and family how great it is to work, there and people, and you’re hiring people, friends and family because you know, this is such a great place to work because it’s such a great employer brand. I’m not saying that is nepotism. I’m not saying that the answer is nepotism, but I’m saying nepotism is going to become a much more common situation to deal with in hiring. When you have a really good employer brand, in a sense. Right.

[JAMES]: Well, and when you, okay, so when you have a really good employer brand or have a workplace, culture that people want their friends and families to also be able to experience a very positive work environment, a great workplace culture, strong employer brand. Most of the time they’re not involved in the hiring process, which is a bit of a distinction to be.

[COBY]: That’s fair.

[JAMES]: Even if you are involved in the hiring process.

[COBY]: Depending on hiring process, you declare conflict of interest.

[JAMES]: Depending on the culture that exists, my general recommendation would be to, as you said, declare conflict of interest. You have to declare it. Declaring a conflict, you don’t have to. When you declare it doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t be involved. It means that you are letting people know that there is a potential perception that could come from this. Are we prepared to deal with it?

[COBY]: Yeah.

[JAMES]: If your leadership is on board, they trust you in your position. They know that and you’ve taken the onus upon yourself. Say, listen, I think this person is probably the best person for the job, but they are related to me. I want you to know that there’s a conflict of interest here. That’s what, that’s what in my mind, that’s the proper process. Yeah, because it protects yourself. It also protects the friend, family person who’s coming in to the process, that it’s not just solely you as the person making the decision, hiring decision saying, you know what, I’m going to give this position to my friend. It’s that they were competitive, they are the best person for the job and I’m not going to be the only one involved in this decision for transparency sake.

[COBY]: Yeah, well, and I mean, and that is exactly like when we, like what happens. So, when we work with, with companies and we’re revising their hiring processes and revising their policy manuals and you know, we always kind of encourage them to kind of have some declarations around nepotism. That’s, and that is the process that we, we, we put in there is to kind of declare a conflict of interest, you know, like, you know, putting in some redundancies to kind of allow for there to be a more transparent process and it’s kind of clear. And, and no one can claim bias and everything else like that too. But, yeah, yeah, you’re right. And, but I mean, it is something.

[JAMES]: That I think I’ve got that recorded, by the way.

[COBY]: Yes. Rats. but I do think though that it is something that is a more common thing for companies. As your employer brand improves, this is going to be something you’re going to have to deal with. So having language around conflict of interest and identifying and then efforts to kind of curb nepotism is something you don’t want to have right into your processes and policies, just to, one, provide the transparency, but two, to allow you to reap the success of your friends and employees, friends and families, recommending great people to you. That’s a great position to be in, especially nowadays. So you need to be prepared for it. And I do think that, I think you said was kind of true, that usually it’s the person is either not a hiring process or that the people that are being hired are not necessarily in higher leadership positions. And I think that nepotism is more common at mid to lower levels. Sort of idea when you have a good employer brand. But when nepotism really only happens at the C suite level or the high director level, that’s likely, more of the negative sign of the cushy jobs are more common in those kind of environments.

[JAMES]: All right, let’s actually take a second and figure out, because we’ve gone back and forth on a bunch of things. So what do we actually agree on and what are we still arguing or discussing, I should say.

[COBY]: Well, I will admit that you’ve made some good points around, again, kind of the idea of the nepotism in treatment is something that pretty much is always bad. I mean, like, you know, there is an idea, like, you know, it’s really hard to think of anything that’s not damaging when some people are treated better or provided more for people because of their relation. I think that. I’m inclined to agree with you that it’s always damaging. It’s pretty much always bad. the cronyism part is something that, you know, is, I think we’re in agreement on that too, that there are situations where people, because of the merit of their skills and experience, it’s good to kind of bring in people that will, that are aligned with, with, with the, the executive trying to like, you know, rebuild a team when they kind of clean house. But it’s, it’s a very small, situation where that’s beneficial.

[JAMES]: We’re largely, yeah, it’s not the norm. And yeah, it’s, there are, it’s kind of the exception that proves the rule though, right?

[COBY]: Yeah. Yep. That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I get the feeling you started to agree with me that it’s actually nepotism is a bit more complex than being kind of mostly, almost always bad.

[JAMES]: Yeah. It is a complex issue because when, I think one of the things that came out in this conversation specifically for me is the issue of intent. And when you start trying to figure out in like, intent is complex, the whole issue around how do we actually ascribe, intent to people’s actions. We can’t do that. We can’t ever really know. And the intent, if the intent is good, like we talked about with the, especially with the generational business or the you know, wanting to kind, of raise up the next generation of leaders, that’s a really good intention. And yes, nepotism falls. It clearly falls within the nepotism bucket, but it’s not really that bad.

[COBY]: Yeah.

[JAMES]: I’ll give you that.

[COBY]: All right. And I think we’re both in agreement that often the complaints of nepotism are more of the symptoms of a workplace or culture that is most likely dealing with high levels of job dissatisfaction. And it’s just a big thing to complain about, but it’s actually probably not the root cause where the dissatisfaction is probably the root cause.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And transparency is probably, an excellent thing to incorporate when you’re trying to actually, you know, be upfront about why someone’s hired, why stuff’s happening. And almost like it might be, better to err on the side of over communicating just to make sure that you’re being that much more transparent. Right.

[JAMES]: Yeah. Especially the higher, authority level that the position has.

[COBY]: Yeah, yeah. And I think that too. Like, you know, we, because we kind of talked about two different kinds of nepotism in little ways, or two different kind of situations, I suppose, like one nepotism, but two different situations. There’s a huge difference between hiring someone who’s going to be a value added employee, a good person with the skills, and maybe that’s being groomed for the position, versus hiring somebody that’s totally entitled and there to sponge off the company.

[JAMES]: Are you hiring a person or a parasite?

[COBY]: Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s actually probably a pretty good distinction there too. Is like, is. Yeah. Is that person there to be a good employer. Yeah. They be. Just to be a parasite.

[JAMES]: Because let’s face it, there. There are some, and it’s not only nepotism that ends with that. There are some people who just end up being parasites.

[COBY]: Absolutely.

[JAMES]: Well, I mean, that’s an entirely other podcast episode.

[COBY]: Right, but you’re right. But I mean, a toxic hire. It’s a toxic hire.

[JAMES]: Hundred percent.

[COBY]: But I do think, though, that. I think that we had to kind of position, again, the two different types of people. I think that it’s probably around the idea of like, the entitled type of nepotism.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: And almost like the ones that are like, you know, that are almost like low key downplaying, almost like they have to work like you see, you said before, work kind of against and make up for the fact that they were hired because of, there was more of a humility and a humbleness to it. It’s almost like they don’t want to, like, you know, it’s like if the. If the title is. Do you know, do you know what my last name is? Is one of the entitled, whereas the. Oh, no, you actually know what my last name is.

[JAMES]: Can I go by my…

[COBY]: Yeah. My mother’s maiden name.

[JAMES]: Yeah.

[COBY]: but I kind of think it’s like, I think that a good way to think about it is almost how they use it. How they almost how the nepotism is beneficial, because, like I said, the entitled one is using the name and using everything kind of like to protect themselves, whereas the more humble one is really about, like, you know, trying to say, well, there’s a lot of benefit that I can, like, you know, I can make stronger relationships faster because I can, if people have known me for longer, or I can, you know, like, it’s. There’s a, there’s a bit of that, you know, we have a similar work ethic. So I can, it’s almost like there’s more of the ability to be more reliable and trustworthy because you’re hiring a no entity. So you might even want to, like, I guess, position it. Kind of like the entitled use of nepotism. They use it as a shield from accountability, whereas the humble use nepotism as like a sword, I suppose, like to strike more reliably and more consistently in the way that they do their job. So I do think that there are two. There’s different ways that nepotism is used. And so, again, adding to the complexity of it is that there’s different ways that. Are you hiring an employee? Are you hiring a parasite? The idea that are you hiring someone that’s humble despite the relations, or someone that’s entitled and the only value they have is the last name? Right.

[JAMES]: Okay. I’m not sure. We may still argue about this for the next few days, probably. I think we’re good for the podcast. Hopefully there’s something of value here, because unfortunately, a lot of people are dealing with the stress that comes with, nepotism. Whether you are in HR, whether you are an executive or a business owner, there, are. I still believe there are a lot of negative aspects to it. I grudgingly admit that Coby has some valid points, especially around, intent in the way that nepotism is wielded.

[COBY]: Yeah. So I think that, although I need to do any kind of summary, because I think that we kind of summarize pretty well near at the end. But I do think that, yeah, this is something that is, especially while we’re in the situation where so many businesses are struggling with recruitment, that nepotism is probably something they need to be prepared for other to prepare for a stronger employer brand, or just the reality of hiring different people that they might not have thought of before, but being prepared for it, but also realizing that if the nepotism bell is constantly being rung or there’s always this low key complaint about it, it might be more about job dissatisfaction than actually about nepotism itself.

[JAMES]: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s just, a tool that you can use. You need to be aware of the consequences of wielding that particular tool, but.

[COBY]: Yeah, yeah. Whether you’re wielding a shield or a sword, there’s consequences from both. Okay, so that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access to the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit www.roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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