HR Compliance Risks, Making Team Building Last, Measuring DEI – Answering Listener Questions

Full Transcript Below

ANNOUNCER: Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.



COBY: Did we lose a patient?



JAMES: No, that’s just my lunch.



COBY: Hey, thanks for joining us. I’m Coby. He’s James. And today we’re going to do something a little bit different. We’re gonna answer some questions posed to us by you, our faithful listeners.



JAMES: Yeah. So what’s great is I really enjoyed this format. We’ve done it a few times. I think this is our third Q and A session and it’s really nice to hear what questions are coming from people who are actually taking the time to listen to us. The fact that you’re listening to us is a huge ego boost anyways. You guys rock. But what’s really nice is that we have these great questions that usually are not you know, full 45 minute podcast episodes that we can dive into and You can hit us up on LinkedIn on our company page, Roman 3 or you can send them directly to us and we’ll make sure the emails in somewheres in the show notes or something.



COBY: So why don’t we jump to the first question? Ok, so I read what are the biggest risks facing small businesses around HR compliance?



JAMES: The biggest risks? This is an interesting one because I can, for once I can actually boil it down into a simple answer. Largely it’s people don’t know what they don’t know. I love working with small businesses. small business owners very passionate about their business. They know their product or service inside out people. Management is a unique skill. And what usually happens with small businesses and kind of where the danger lies is that as your business grows there, you tend to reach this not crisis point, kind of a tipping point where you realize? Ok, now I’ve got 5, 8, 10 employees and I need something. I need to be a little more intentional about what I’m doing. I need to actually formalize these practices that I’ve put in place. They need to be formalized into policies. And I definitely need to make sure that I’m meeting my legal requirements So what happens is that it tends to be just off the side of your desk. You know, it’s the administrative functions of HR which are very important. but it tends to be document preparation, it’s compensation and benefits, it’s payroll, it’s scheduling, it’s a lot of the administrative functions that kind of get all, get grouped in under HR, and those tend to go to an inistrative pe person on your team to just, “hey, you already have a full time job here. Also, you’re now going to be doing our HR, congratulations”, which is difficult and that is a significant risk for small businesses, not that people can’t do it and not that it shouldn’t be done that way, but it is, there are a lot of nuances when it comes to HR and making sure that you have someone on your team that is properly trained and understands how, you know, the administrative process of HR and the intent of policies and practices with your HR, as your HR needs develop in your organization, that’s gonna be really important. And so if you are in this nebulous stage of, you know, you’re growing, you’re hiring more employees and you have that need for HR and you’re kind of doing it off the side of your desk, please invest in that individual, you know, get them connected with your local SHRM or CPHR, association. Make sure that they have the tools and the training that they need to really be able to protect your business and protect themselves and not only look at it from the side of their desk because it’s a, it can be a big job for somebody to do part time.



COBY: Yeah. And the administrative parts of it are something that you’re right. I think it kind of creeps up on a lot of people where like, you know, can you make sure that these forms are signed for this or to make sure that you know, the all the this the payroll information is collected by this new employee. And I think it kind of, it happens kind of gradually but like the thing is, is that because a lot of the time, the HR almost like the HR responsibilities and sometimes the HR title is attached to a person kind of as they inherit this pile of work and they’re given this new title often that person doesn’t have the background, the education or the experience or the knowledge around how do we keep this organization legally compliant in line with our legislative requirements? And you’re right, which is important where someone is, has that role in the organization, they should be getting the training, the the connection to the HR associations and be able to have that support. Because to me this kind of like, you know, the work around, things like around your bookkeeping is those kind of stuff that, that is also something that tends to get, handed to somebody to kind of manage. But, but that person who’s managing the books isn’t the person that files your corporate taxes, you end up hiring someone to do that for you to make sure that you’re compliant with tax legislation and all the other kind of stuff. But we don’t have that person that we can kind of pass it off to the once a year review in, in the HR realm. So we just kind of continually add on to this person’s responsibilities, this admin person who does more of the administrative pieces. But like I say, they don’t know what they don’t know and they’re learning the job as it gets, as stuff gets added to their desk often. So it’s tough for them to kind of know how do we maintain legal compliance if they really don’t know what that looks like.



JAMES: And it’s not only the very small businesses that don’t know what they don’t know. We work with small businesses, you know, small business is kind of a broad catch all. But it’s a, there’s a lot of variation that falls into the small business category from the 5, 10, 15 employees to 250. I think that depending on where you are, the classification goes up to 500 employees. and those, you know, 50 employees and 500 employees are very, very different organizations. Yeah. But regardless, it still tends to hold true that people don’t know what they don’t know. And often in that range of small business, how you categorize it, whether you’re talking the 20, 50, 100, 400 employees. Yes, you may, as you get larger, you probably have a full time HR professional who is doing the administrative pieces, but we still tend to see HR focus on the administrative component of HR which is one element of HR and because it’s this almost this natural progression from the side of the desk to OK, Now we, you are going to be our full time HR administrator and we’re just gonna, you know, the company goes from 15 people to 50 they still have the same mentality and role in place and they go from 50 to 100 and 50 they haven’t, they’re not scaling their human resources with the scalability of their business. And what the challenge that we see with that is that what falls to the wayside is everything other than are our policies in place can do we have the, you know, benefits and Payroll administration tends to just become a significant aspect of that administrative role and even with the knowledge or the intention or the understanding that, you know, we really need to be investing in our people or we need to be developing, you know, culture programs or we need to look at you know, these key ideas of psychological safety or inclusion or engagement, you have not created the capacity in your HR teams to be able to actually deliver on that. So even if you know about these concepts, it tends to be seen as a auxiliary piece to your HR strategy rather than an integral part of how you actually create a profitable, productive business.



COBY: Yeah, the other thing too is we did an episode kind of the end of last season where we talked about like, you know, when should a business invest in their HR and their people and culture. And one of the things we talked about there was kind of when you’re at the like 15 employee mark that tends to be that tipping point of, you know, you can, you know, where a single owner, operator manager, like often the owner carries a responsibility for their small team and they can do it, you know in the natural course of their work. We kind of refer to this as like Minute rice HR is kind of quick. It’s easy, you can kind of do it at any time.



JAMES: Filling an important part of your meal.



COBY: Yeah, but like you’re already having these conversations with your team every day. So saying, oh, you missed this form in your payroll or oh, you know, you need to make sure that you, that this gets filed or those little like pieces are a part of your HR compliance to maintain your legal standards. It’s something that you just naturally can add to your, to the work that you do because you, you have a small team, it’s easier to manage. But once you kind of cross that 15 person threshold, that’s when you need to be looking at, you know, having someone take on this role, whether it’s you have someone with knowledge or experience to kind of help you manage it, you look for fractional support or HR consultant or something else like that kind of like we do with like, you know, we have a bookkeepers, then we put the book out to an accountant, bring someone else in to kind of help you. And that’s something that can allow you to make sure that you’re maintaining the compliance, and you’re prepared for the scalability because you want to move beyond from 15 to 50 to 100 and 150. So you wanna make sure that you have the support and infrastructure in place to make sure that you’re doing that to be legally compliant. But you’re also going beyond compliance and you’re trying to maximize your employee performance and your recruitment and your employer brand and everything else like that too. So just keep it, keeping in mind that 15 person kind of a company is, is a bit of a threshold that you need to relative. You’re, if you’re in there or you’re close to there on either side this is an important question you need to be asking yourself.



JAMES: And the challenge is at that stage, hiring a full time person who is not overtly making you money is a difficult pill to swallow. For a lot of businesses. The the cash flow just often is just not there to hire somebody full time to manage their HR supports. And which is why the rise of fractional work is an absolute godsend for many small businesses because it allows you to access highly skilled HR professionals, the same way that you can access an account, an external accountant, right? You know, pay them for five, maybe 10 hours a month. And they will, you know, depending on the scope of what you need, but you can, you can bring in these experts who have the knowledge and the skill sets to actually build your HR functions for you without having to put out 50 80 K. Well, I mean, hiring a full time experienced hr professional is going to cost you anywhere from 60 to $80,000 at the low end. If you’re looking for a CHRO level, you’re talking substantially more than that, but you can access those skill sets for a fraction of the price.




COBY: Yeah. Yeah. So, so if, if that’s something that interests you, I encourage you to check out the episode from last season where we really dig into that a lot more. We talk about the different kinds of HR supports and businesses can access. So yeah, so it’s an episode on when should a business invest in their HR and people and culture? So definitely check that episode out. I think we should move on to our next question.



JAMES: OK, I’ve got a question that I’m gonna throw to you, Coby, how do you make coaching and team building programs have a lasting effect in the workplace?



COBY: Now, this is a really, really good question and when I read it the first time I put a lot of stuff ran through my mind because this is probably one of the most like critical questions that I think we’ve been asked because there are a lot of programs out there in the team building range in the personality, you know, assessments, psychometric programs. You know, there are a lot of programs, great content, big companies that have built, great, well respected, well used products that address the issues around team building and morale and improving the individual, improving the team performance. But one of the common things that we heard a lot of over the years and we’ve seen a lot of over the years is a lot of times these programs get implemented with a lot of support and a lot of gusto and, you know, there’s these great full, you know, multi day, full day programs and everyone’s like jazzed about it. And they learn new languages, how to speak about like, you know, they attach themselves to like colors or to animals and, and helps them kind of better communicate and they learn a lot about themselves and they learn a lot about their teams and that t new understanding is gonna help them really improve their performance, their connectivity t each other, their work and it’s gonna have a huge impact on the organization. And a lot of companies have that momentum that quickly fades away. Once they try to actually have it become part of their normal every day, it does not have a lasting effect. And so a lot of times things just go back to normal and sometimes that they view, well, maybe those programs aren’t as good as they thought they were because it didn’t work, it didn’t last when really the problem isn’t necessarily the programs. The problem is the culture, the work environment that the programs are trying to implement it in. And this reminds me of kind of early when we were forming Roman 3, we were building some of these programs, w have four, we call them personality inventory programs with psychometrics involved to kind of help around, you know, team communication, team, performance, finding purpose at work, those types of things. And we were very excited when we were building those out because we saw these as, you know, being able to kind of be up there as far as quality and content and, you know, improving the organizational success and performance of some of these, you know, much, much bigger brands. But we, and we did a lot of beta testing and a lot of needs assessments when we were building these out. And I remember we had a conversation early on when we were looking at a beta testing this with the RCMP. We’re talking to a staff sergeant from a local who was responsible for a few detachments kind of in Nova Scotia. And we were looking to have some of these programs used with, you know, with some of the attachments that he was responsible for. And this was a big thing for him was that they had put in, they invested a lot of money in a lot of these programs to have you know, to improve kind of the communications, the, the morale, a lot of stuff that was really important to him, to have these cohesive teams, to provide this, the, you know, the community services that the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are responsible for. But every time they tried to do these things a week or two later, everything went back to normal and it’s, if as if they had never done it and they thought it was a waste of time, effort, money. And it made a lot of the people that went through them very frustrated that they’re wasting their time with these things that were never gonna take off. And we were very conscious of this when we were very aware of this, when we were trying to look at and pilot our own programs with these detachments because we’re like, well, we don’t want that to be our program. So then that’s when we started looking at the workplace diagnostics stuff that we focus on now because we realized that, you know, with our programs were gonna be, you know, maybe very well received day of, week of. But if we didn’t address the culture, we didn’t, didn’t assess the culture that they were going to be implemented in. It was kind of like, you know, planting seeds in hard dry, you know, barren soil, you know, it just wasn’t gonna take. And this was kind of the reality, the “aha moment” for us because we have these great programs that we, that we were very excited to use. But we realized that most of the workplaces didn’t have the culture that would allow them to thrive, that we needed to make sure that we had, we were supporting the culture to accept them as much as we were trying to support the people and the teams to, to be able to improve the performance.



JAMES: What I found really interesting in our conversations with the staff sergeant was that they had put like they had tried a number of programs at this point. The RCMP as a whole had invested a substantial amount of money into individual performance in the behavior. You know, how do we change the individual behaviors of our team members so that we can be a highly effective high functioning team, which is you want your peace officers to be highly effective, highly functioning teams. What I found so interesting and a little demoralizing was how the programs that they had tried because the environment wasn’t ready for them had turned these great programs into a bit of a joke with the employees, if not jokes, probably the wrong term, but it became a Oh, well, we’re doing this again, right? It’s that it reinforces the complacent mentality of things are never going to change our company. Whether we’re talking a large organization like the RCMP or anything else. Our company doesn’t actually want to change things because we’re just doing the same thing over and over again and nothing actually gets fixed. And what’s really sad about that is there are phenomenal programs out there for developing team performance, for looking at the behavioral side of individual performance and team performance. Like there are wonderful, well respected, well, researched and supported programs that you can use to improve team performance. And one way that I think one way, one of the knowledge that we use sometimes in talking about this is that these coaching programs, these team performance programs, if we think of it like a rowing team. All right, you’ve got a team of rowers who are all working towards the same goal. These coaching programs will help each individual rower be the best athlete they can be, right? They will coach them on the proper behaviors, on the proper methodology, on how an individual enhances the team, and how the uniqueness of each team member will help the team propel forward. And that is a wonderful goal and is actually can be accomplished with these programs. The problem is they’re trying to do it in a leaky boat.



COBY: Yeah. No. And that’s, and that is an important way to think about it. Is that like you know, a lot of these programs, you know, a lot from, are quite successful in some organizations largely because, like, you know, to use the analogy, the boats intact. And then a lot of other organizations will invest, you know, a, a lot of time effort and energy and money into these program, but they’re doing it in a leaky boat and no matter how hard you force the training on the rowers. You know, you’re never gonna, never gonna be sustainable if the boats constantly taking on water. So like, and this is something that, you know, we realize some of our programs that… we have a program that one of our favorites that we run, we call Sevenfold Recognition. We talk about, you know, the way that we communicate, appreciation and recognition to our, you know, to each other is based on our own preferences rather than speaking to the preferences of others. And it’s a great program that has, you know, has had a lot of success in some organizations and has had zero success in others. And it’s often because, you know, early on, we weren’t really looking at the conditions of the boat. That’s the culture or the, or the environment of the organization, we were only looking at trying to train the rowers, they could take and use the analogy. And what we came to realize is that looking at investigating the workplace, the culture, like a lot of the work that we do around our diagnostic tools, our OCEAN suite, everything else like that too, our workplace culture investigations, a lot of that is like working on the boat to support the growth of the rowers. So some of these great programs are out there like there’s, you know, there’s Covey, and there’s Birkman and there’s Strengthfinders and Myers Briggs and some other ones that people are really gonna have, have had a great success with. These are the kind of, you know, like our program. Our Sevenfold Recognition program and our 8 Sparks of Purpose. These programs are great at helping coach the rowers to optimize performance and, you know, and become the best individuals and teams as possible. But the investigative side of the work that we do around our OCEAN suite of tools or workplace culture investigations is like being the shipwrights focusing on fixing the boat. So the environment that the rowers are in is gonna be as optimal as the rowers themselves because, you know, strong rowers in a weak boat are not gonna go, are not gonna go very far. But if you optimize the boat and the rowers, that’s when things really take off.



JAMES: Yeah. No, I still really enjoy that analogy even though I know absolutely nothing about rowing. And I’m not sure if I mean, there could be an avid rower. I’m not even sure if a rower is the proper term that we should be using. Please correct us if our analogy is faulty, but the fact is that you need both. So I think the main takeaway, the main thing that we want people to take from this conversation is that these programs can be augmented and to really, you really need to look at the environment in which you are trying to implement these programs that can have a substantial positive impact on your teams, on the individuals and on your organization. So why don’t we move on to our next question?



COBY: Right. That’s a good idea. So, OK, I’ll ask this one to you. Sure. So this is, this is a great question. How do you effectively measure DEI?



JAMES: It is a great question but I think there’s, there’s a fundamental problem with the way that we are asking it because the question assumes that DEI is one thing. And so how do you measure DEI? Well, diversity, equity and inclusion, they are three separate important pieces that we really need to evaluate individually. Diversity is something that you can measure relatively easily, right? It is something that is fairly tangible. It’s, it can be, you know, how many people of a certain demographic do we have in different role? Like there are, it’s probably of the three, it’s the easiest one to measure, equity, I think where we really need to look at, how do you, measure equity is really gonna come down to your policy, your practice, and your perception because equity really lives in, needs to be enshrined in your policies. It needs to be reinforced by managers in their day to day practice and it has to really be front of mind in people’s perception of how the workplace operates. Because if it doesn’t live in policy, if it doesn’t play out in practice, and if it doesn’t, if it is in front of mind in people’s perspective, then equity is not properly being utilized. So those are the measurements that I would use for measuring for looking at equity inclusion is a big, big topic and it is a really of the three, I think it’s probably the most difficult to actually measure because when we’re talking about di when we’re talking about inclusion, we are talking about whether or not people feel that they belong. The mistake that I’ve seen with trying to measure inclusion is measuring whether or not people fit in and fitting in is not the same as belonging. In fact, I would say that they are opposites because in order to fit in, you are modifying, you are hiding components, you are assimilating, you are changing key aspects to what you think it will be popular or easy, like the idea of fitting in I think is the wrong, absolute wrong approach when trying to think about inclusion because it doesn’t lead to that feeling of belonging, that I belong for who I am, for the skills and perspectives that I bring for my abilities, for my perspective, right? These the belonging is really what we are seeking. And that is a very because it is so individual and because it requires some self reflection, it can be a very difficult one to measure.



COBY: Yeah. And, and I think that it’s definitely a good point to come to stay at the very beginning to say that again, DEI is not a single entity. It’s different components that kind of, that are very interconnected a that are very, you know, very, that relate to each other very well and have a lot of overlap but trying to measure them all at once and, you know, with one simple process or something that is often just does a lot of them a disservice because you’re right, you know, looking at demographics can largely be a way to measure diversity, but that is not a way to measure DEI, right. And in the ways of equity, you know, you’re right, equity is about having policies that protect, enforce and empower fairness and equitable treatment. But then, you know, but the policies being there isn’t enough. You also have to make sure that the practice, the daily use of those policies, the people live and breathe that sense of equity and fairness every day, managers to employees, employees, to each other and so on. But also then there’s the perception, do people think that it exists?



JAMES: Do people actually people would people stand up and say, yeah, this is a normal part of it every day because if the policy is there, but the practices and people don’t live it every day and people don’t think it’s there, then it’s not there because perception shapes reality for people, right? It’s it doesn’t matter if you could have the best well-written policies in the world and you could actually have managers who are pretty good at implementing them on a day to day basis. But if there is some underlying reason or perception of inequity or unfairness that’s going to rule how the individual responds and how the individual thinks about equity in your workplace.



COBY: Absolutely. And when we use our investigative or sorry, our diagnostic tools from our OCEAN suite, we use our indicator tools to investigate policy, practice, and perception. And that does paint a very good picture about what is the organization trying to do around inclusion and around equity, and psychological safety. What is it, what is the actual practice that people are actually delivering on every day and how people feel about that really does paint that that larger picture and it really does help kind of measure the impact of equity in the workplace quite effectively. But then on the inclusion, belonging pieces, we talk about this when we, when we do our risk assessments as part of as part of our more our deeper dives as part of our OCEAN suite of tools. Because we look at the Five Locations and inclusion and belonging has to exist. It has to exist kind of in teams. It has to exist within the company as a whole, it has to exist in the recruitment process, it has to exist in leadership, both for leaders to belong for who they are, but also to share that belonging, acceptance to those that report them. And it has to exist in training and development, because these are the places where we need to feel like we can be your authentic self. We can be valued and accepted for our skills and our thoughts and our abilities. And in measuring the Five Locations for that sense of belonging is a way to actually really put some tangibility to the way that we incorporate DEI. And that’s something that we, that we are able to, you know, provide structure around as part of our OCEAN suite of tools. But it is important to realize that I think fundamentally the answer to the question broad strokes is that measuring DEI in a single effort does not really work. And it’s kind of like measuring DEI is kind of like trying to measure how good a movie is, right? I mean, you think about it, you’ve got, you know, like the box office, you’ve got awards and how much of a lasting appeal that there is, right? And I mean, like, you can measure the box office can, like you can measure diversity, you know, it’s just a numbers thing, you know, you just show the numbers and, and box office success.



JAMES: But does that mean that it is a good movie?



COBY: Exactly. And you can look at awards and awards are kind of like looking at equity, right? Because like, I mean, you know, are the, you know, how, where are the quality of the awards? Where are the bodies, what are the criteria, you know, what’s the perception of these entities and everything else like that too, right? And when it comes to inclusion, or so it comes to lasting appeal, it’s kind of like inclusion where like, you know, it’s like that acceptance broad strokes, right?



JAMES: Because I mean, there are some great movies that are only considered cult classics because they weren’t a box office success and they weren’t a critical success, but they are in ingrained in kind of our, they’ve become a part of our, they’re like a subculture, in pop culture and they, everyone’s heard them, everyone’s seen them, seen them.



COBY: Right.



JAMES: But you have, they be classified as a massive success when they were originally, made. Probably not. But you also have movies that have done well in the box office that have won awards. and then within the next six months everybody forgets about them.



COBY: Exactly. Yeah. And like they become, they’re, they’re kind of on our, like, they’re our, our watch list on our screen.



JAMES: I remember that movie.



COBY: Maybe I’ll watch that at some point, then I’ll never get to it. But I’ll watch this called Classic for the 500th time because it’s such a great movie, even though



JAMES: Godfather, Scarface.



COBY: But even just like, you know, kind of, even some of the, some of the more sub, subculture ones too. I mean, those ones were pretty critically successful at the time.



JAMES: But like, but again, here’s the thing, maybe we should get off the movie thing because this is not a movie podcast.



COBY: But I think it’s a apt comparison we’re talking about. Yeah, because that’s something that we can give advice on how to measure. But I think the point is, is to say that, you know, measuring something complex and multifaceted with a single effort is the key is just gonna do deconstruct it, right.



JAMES: Like it needs to, you need to look at these large Like, first of all, these are three large topics individually, don’t lump three large topics into one standard measurement because it’s not gonna work. Take each of the large, these large topics and look at deconstructing them. And for inclusion, the Five Lcations is an excellent deconstruction to look at where does belonging need to exist in order for inclusion to be successful for equity policy practice and perception is gonna be your best first place to really investigate and see where your equity lies in terms of your workplace and diversity. Yeah, diversity is probably the easiest of the three to measure because it, like you said, it’s kind of like that box office appeal.



COBY: Yeah, I mean, again, and there’s more to it than just than just the demographics. There’s like, you know, there’s the programs in there to incorporate kind of other elements too. But we’re not saying it’s that one thing but it is a simpler piece. But thinking that just because you have a good, you know, a good representation, demographic representation, you have anti bias training, you have these, you know stuff around cultural competencies, those are great for diversity, but those are not a way to measure. but they will not do justice to measuring equity and inclusion as well. And I think that, you know, part and again, we’ve given a number of talks on the importance of inclusion that we’ve has in past episodes about that. So definitely check out those if this is something that’s of interest to you. But I think it is important to kind of summarize it by saying, you know, deconstruct it, you know, look at things like policy practice and perception, look at things like the Five Locations but and don’t try to, to provide a simple measurement tool for a complex concept like DEI. That’s great. Yeah. OK. So I think I’ll do a bit of a summary of the three questions. I really love these. I thought these are great questions and I really love the fact that we get these kind of questions. So hopefully people will send us more. because again, I think that it’s just great for us to kind of have this conversation to kind of dig down these very small kind of ideas and provide hopefully something of tangible value to the listener out there. All right. So the first question was, what are the biggest risks facing small businesses around HR compliance? And kind of the short answer is, is one of the problems is you don’t know what you don’t know. And when you, when you’re small and you’re managing your HR kind of on the other side of your desk, you know, it’s, it’s a bit easier to kind of make sure that you’re maintaining the compliance pieces. But the bigger you get, if you if you’re not supporting the compliance aspect in the same way that you need to as you scale, then you’re gonna end up getting yourself into trouble around meeting legal standards. And maybe we should be thinking about the way that we manage our HR compliance and our HR responsibilities in all of the same way that we manage our bookkeeping and our accounting. Having, you know, someone that does some of the administrative tasks on the daily is fine if we can get some support from professionals and experts to make sure that we’re maintaining what we need to meet legal standards, but also to be, you know, not just scraping the minimum, the bottom of the barrel as far as a minimum, we’re actually trying to get ahead and be more proactive to get, you know, a better handle on our finances and a better handle on our HR. The next question was, how do we make coaching and team building programs have a lasting effect in the workplace? And the short answer to that is really the fact that, you know, as great as these programs are of building high capacity individuals, high capacity teams. If we’re not caring for the culture, the work environment that these teams work in, then we’re really not looking at the full picture. Because these programs will not have a lasting effect if the environment is toxic or barren or, or provides, you know, no ability for these programs to really kind of grab hold. And it’s kind of like the analogy that we use with a rowing team. If you prepare strong skilled rowers that work cohesively as a team, but you put them in the environment, the boat that is full of cracks and holes is gonna limit their success. And it’s never gonna really, it may not get to his destination. So we realize you have to have both rowing coaches and shipwrights. The rowing coaches work on the team and the people and the shipwrights work on the culture and the environment, if you really want to augment some of these great, fantastic programs that are out there because they won’t take off if you don’t have all kind of everything working cohesively. And the last question was, how do you effectively DEI? Well, the first thing is to look at not as a single entity that requires a simple measurement for a solution. Realize that you should be looking at diversity with one lens, equity with another and inclusion with another. But, you can be tracking it down and looking at things like the practice and the policy and the perception of our workplaces looking at like, you know, where we’re trying to have these types of pieces of belonging and inclusion and what are the and what are the people that we’re attracting and holding on to? These are the questions that will allow us to put some more tangibility into the way that we look at things like the DEI because if it’s important, we should be able, we should be able to measure it. So let’s actually put the effort into putting good measurements in place so that we can actually have the success that we’re looking for.



JAMES: That’s great.



COBY: All right. So that about does it for us. For a full archive of our podcast and access to the video version hosted on our youtube channel, visit Thanks for joining us.



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